279 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 September 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

Because most people are running primarily, the better IS Mechs and builds by now?

There is a much wider spectrum of "bad build potential" on bad mechs IS side than there is Clan side.

Feel free to reference Kiiyor's thread, and try to remember your singular experience (or your exaggeration of reality) is not the whole of the game - people actually do play other mechs, there are more lower tonnage IS mechs, there are more trial IS mechs.

The testing was not performed in the group queue, it was held in the open solo queue.

Having leveled my Adders there, I can tell you very clearly many people are not playing "the best IS" mechs nor "the best builds" for those mechs.



Unfortunately they are unlikely to have a way to filter players IS vs. Clan teams in the group queue (because group creation process happens before the MM begins filtering) - which while less than perfect would still be a much better set of data than the solo PUG queue.

They'd have to create and implement a specific restriction similar to 3/3/3/3, which is probably quite a stretch for something that might only last a day or two of testing - although we should assume they are working on this for CW.

[RAM]

stjobe, on 20 September 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

So how do you explain the latest round of IS vs Clan testing then? You know, the one in which Clans still won 73% of matches?

Not necessary. The test is flawed and therefore the result is meaningless. The Clans winning potato or the IS winning pink would have just as much meaning.


RAM
ELH

[RavensScar]

RAM, on 20 September 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

Not necessary. The test is flawed and therefore the result is meaningless. The Clans winning potato or the IS winning pink would have just as much meaning.


RAM
ELH

Ok, I'll bite.

What these stats are telling me is that if PGI were to add in an IS vs. Clan game mode with the 'mechs balanced as they are at present, I would only win 1 in 4 matches in an IS 'mech.

Surely this is the important point - the actual experience players will have if a faction-based game mode (that the bulk of the community want) is implemented?

[Fire and Salt]

RavensScar, on 20 September 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

Ok, I'll bite.

What these stats are telling me is that if PGI were to add in an IS vs. Clan game mode with the 'mechs balanced as they are at present, I would only win 1 in 4 matches in an IS 'mech.

Surely this is the important point - the actual experience players will have if a faction-based game mode (that the bulk of the community want) is implemented?

So clan mechs should be nerfed until they are worse than IS mechs, because IS pilots are worse, on average?

[Hoax415]

Five more weeks until its almost impossible for anyone with even a shred of honesty to make these pathetic threads.

Seven more weeks until its done completely.

I hope they run a nice long test in 5 weeks, in the group queue and see what kind of results we get when everything that matters but the TW is available for cbills.

Then that test will come up in Clan favor and what wonderful excuses will we hear?

I'm betting some yarn about tactical failures. If they would just ambush the clan mechs 4v1 they would win. Stupid IS pilots git gud.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Honestly, I've said it before and I guess I can say it again. The clans aren't as OP as everyone clamors about, and many players are learning just how bad the Novass and Sh*t Fox is, and are going to learn how bad the Suckonner is soon.

Ton for ton:
Spider > Sh*t Fox
Firestarter/Jenner > Badder
Cent/Hunchy > Novass
Griffon/Shawk < Stormcrow
Cataphract > Suckonner
Orion < Timberwolf
Stalker/Battlemaster > Peacedove***
Atlas < Direwolf

***this is debatable because I did just as well in my Warhawks as my Stalkers and Battelmasters, and these two matchups are by far the closest with the same KDR of roughly 3, and the builds I used are all VERY similar:
WHK-PRIME compared to STK-3F
WHK-B compared to BLR-1D

But back to the main point, if you look I highlighted three match-ups in bold. The three outliers, the Stormcrow, Timberwolf, and Direwolf.

The good IS mechs are still better than the bad IS mechs, there are just a ridiculous number of bad IS mechs. And some of them are just REALLY bad, yet people insist on bringing them thinking they are good mechs.

It's also easier to make bad IS mechs than clan mechs, for instance: AS7-D-DC

And I still see this mech in nearly every fifth solo drop where the guy is the last one to die and he spends more time complaining how the team all got killed off too fast by their OP Direwolves.



Instead of nerfing clan weapons, they need to bring (IE use their quirk system) and bring the outlier mechs back into line (really only the Timberwolf and Stormcrow, the Direwhale is so hard to pilot that even with all of it's ridiculous firepower I regularly see Direwolves fail to break 100 damage, and I even have matches where I'm surprised I broke 100 after the team left me high and dry on my own).

They should also use their quirk system to try and improve some of the less desirable chassis. As it stands right now, why would anyone take a Thud over a Jager or Catapult? Or why would anyone take a Dragon Superbuick or Quicklydead over the five ton lighter Shawk or Griffon?


I'm going to go ahead and call it now:
Commando > Mist Lynx (for obvious reasons like faster and more tonnage to play with)
Blackjack > Ice Ferret (will be close, but judging by the concept art and the paper stats, the edge goes to the Jack)
Jager/Cat > Hellbringer (while the Hellby brings ECM, the Jag and Cat just do weapons better, like the Jagerbombs and Gaussjags)
Victor > Gargoyle (pod space, the Garg might be comparable to the Awesome, and I can see Clan dropdecks using blitz tactics with 3x Gargs, 3x Timbys, and 3x Crows to some effect)

[Mavairo]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 September 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

Because most people are running primarily, the better IS Mechs and builds by now? Whereas you almost can't build a bad TWolf? Because when all Clan Units are 3 Twolf, 3 SC and 2-3 Metawhales, it should tell you something.

No matter what the Clansmen bring, my TDR and BLR will be there!

(and my salvaged Timber..and soon to be salvaged hellbringers...mist lynx, ice ferrets...)

[Archon]

Fire and Salt, on 20 September 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Clans aren't OP.

The clan lights are worse than IS lights.

The nova has terrible free tonnage and its slow.

The summoner also has terrible free tonnage.

The war hawk has 20 non removable heatsinks, and ferro instead of endo, which limits the builds.




There are 3 clan mech that are completely responsible for any balance issues.
Yet, they Nerf the weapons instead of the problem chassis.

The dire wolf was fine too, until they shrunk the CT. Not sure why that was done. I liked it when it was easy to kill, and easy to kill with.

The timberwolf should get hard points for the JJs, so if you equip an S left torso, you can add 2 jus to the left torso only. This would limit some builds and it would be a good thing. Kit fox should get the same treatment for consistency, but it would barely hurt the kit fox because it has 4 available JJ omnipods.

The stormcrow is also great, but it loses side torsos a lot. I think that a penalty for losing a side torso will hurt the stormcrow alot.

The Direwolf desperately needed the CT fix; it was nothing but an LRM magnet until it got one. Otherwise I agree with you.

[Augustus Martelus II]

Well people will always whine about clans.... Funny thing is i can have the same stat (k/d ratio) witch the same weight IS or clan mech. I use building to hide, the terrain to ambush and the mobility of my mech to protect it. And turn your torso when you re getting shot....it spread damage all over your armor. If you stand there sure you ll die quickly.


Well people will be happy when you won t see anymore clan mechs on the battlefield lol

Then why not reducing the price of them? Since they aren't worth the price we pay.

[Gorgo7]

To the OP,

Clan Mechs are fine (OP?) given that they will be fighting 12 vs. 12.
Your post is nonsensical.

[Eboli]

How about we just wait for PGI to add the various quirks to IS mechs first and see how things go.

I own a number of Clan mechs but now play IS mechs. I do not think Clans need to be nerfed any more at the moment apart from PGI looking at heat levels when they lose one torso.

TWolves and DWolves are meant to be dangerous mechs - just don't think you can do a face-off with them and walk away without being hurt. If you do end up walking away...

I also tend to believe that at the beginning most of the Clan mechs were being run by experienced players which helped skew the victory/defeat ratio but also think that weapons did need looking at because they were just so advantageous.

As I said. Just wait for IS quirk implementation and see how it goes from there. No more weapon tweaking to be done until afterwards - if required.

Cheers
Eboli.

[FitzSimmons]

This entire debate seems laughable to me. From the game, the whole point of the Clans were their superior tech. Of freaking course the Clans are stronger. I think MWO has done an admirable job making the Clans at a point where an IS team using superior tactics and skill can win. That being said, MWO needs to find some way of balancing Clan v IS the same way that the table top game did, outside of tech. If that's 10v12, or some boost to IS in game (things like random air strikes on Clan targets come to mind) I'm happy.

If the game becomes Clan v IS and it goes the same way that the test went, it wont be fun for us on the IS side.

Edited by FitzSimmons, 20 September 2014 - 02:40 PM.

[Ultimax]

RavensScar, on 20 September 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

What these stats are telling me is that if PGI were to add in an IS vs. Clan game mode with the 'mechs balanced as they are at present, I would only win 1 in 4 matches in an IS 'mech.

If IS players focused solely on the top performing mechs, I do not think it would be 1/4 matches.


The difficult part is, how do you convince people to run those mechs?


If we saw IS players stick to (generally speaking):

Jenner
Firestarter
Raven
Spider
Griffin
Shadowhawk
Jager
Cataphract
Victor
Stalker
Banshee
Atlas


Then I do not think the win/loss ratio would be 73% in favor of the clans.

[Thorqemada]

Clan Weapons weight less, take less space, most have more range, quite some do more damage, the Clan-XL-Engine is almost as durable as the IS-Standard for much less weight - you can "Spin Doctor" facts how you want - the only thing IS has it better is the damage characteristic of the IS-ACs.

Now Stop Crying!

[Lily from animove]

Is mechs having more tonnage free is ok, they need more for their wepaons.
What is not ok are those clanmechs having lots of hardpoints and lots of tonnage free. They imbalance anything, even amongs clanners. Stormcrow vs bnova 7,4t advantage EVEN with bigger engine. Thats just overkill on that weight class. Same for the TW vs Summoner story. There are stil mechs on clan side being an issue. SOme were overnerfed, since they never were a problem. But some IS mechs needs buff, The dragon for example. What is it good for? cna put some proper weaons on it but not cooling, or at least not enough ammo + cooling. They will always lack either punch or cooling, while their end class brothers can get an all "feel good" creation. This makes them then just a lot more better than their raw tonnage difference.

stjobe, on 20 September 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

So how do you explain the latest round of IS vs Clan testing then? You know, the one in which Clans still won 73% of matches?

because pug, and newbies who have no idea about the game will have to pug with IS heavy and assault mechs, thast why.

Edited by Lily from animove, 20 September 2014 - 02:52 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Ultimatum X, on 20 September 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

If IS players focused solely on the top performing mechs, I do not think it would be 1/4 matches.


The difficult part is, how do you convince people to run those mechs?


If we saw IS players stick to (generally speaking):

Jenner
Firestarter
Raven
Spider
Griffin
Shadowhawk
Jager
Cataphract
Victor
Stalker
Banshee
Atlas


Then I do not think the win/loss ratio would be 73% in favor of the clans.

"b-b-but my Thunderthuds and Dragons and Awesomes loaded up with LRMs, small lazors, MGs, and flamers are good mechs!"

[RavensScar]

Ultimatum X, on 20 September 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

If IS players focused solely on the top performing mechs, I do not think it would be 1/4 matches.


The difficult part is, how do you convince people to run those mechs?


If we saw IS players stick to (generally speaking):

Jenner
Firestarter
Raven
Spider
Griffin
Shadowhawk
Jager
Cataphract
Victor
Stalker
Banshee
Atlas


Then I do not think the win/loss ratio would be 73% in favor of the clans.

But that's exactly my point. Players won't stick to running those 'mechs - and why should they?

The stats we've been given clearly tell you that Clan teams will win 3 out of 4 public matches with the game as it is set up at present.

You can argue that this wouldn't be the case if artificial rules were imposed (IS teams only allowed to run certain 'mechs. Max ELO for Clan pilots. Whatever you fancy.) But that's not the game that's on the public servers, and it's not the game we're playing.

In the game we are playing, IS teams only win 27% of the time.

[BumbleBee]

The only way to do it "evenly" would be to get several groups owning both tech bases (maybe 8-12 different groups of varying ELO matched in pairs) and put half in IS Mechs, half in Clan Mechs and pit them against a "matching" team in the other tech base for 15 or more matches, then have them swap tech bases and do the same.

You'd need the high number of games to compensate for both players "getting in the rhythm" of their Mechs and also stupid tactical errors/random issues/spawnpoint advantages. The more games the better. Using the same players for ALL the matches on both sides should reduce any skill discrepancies. You may still run into outliers, for instance I personally do better in a Thunderbolt than I do in a Timberwolf.

Restricting to only 1 (or none) Timberwolf, Stormcrow and Direwolf for the clan team is probably a good thing too.

Edited by BumbleBee, 20 September 2014 - 03:02 PM.

[AssaultPig]

clan energy weapons are still broadly superior to IS equivalents; better range, better DPS, more heat efficient at long range.

You also can't really compare the clan and IS engines straight across as you've done in your table; clan XLs are obviously much better than IS XLs. Clan ballistics are also lighter than their IS counterparts across the board; they have less tonnage for weapons, but they also need less.

[FitzSimmons]

I'm feeling hurt by the lack of Cicada 3M love here. Hurt in my feels.