72 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

This one boggles me. You drop in a team and everyone just sorta pulls back... and waits to get rolled.

This isn't new. In a solo match you won't have viable coordination, it's the nature of the beast. This means that defense is inherently too slow to respond to a hard push. Conversely a hard push is very easy to coordinate; 'Everyone push position X' and that's it. All you gotta do. Everyone knows their job and place more or less and away you go.

I'm curious to see who defends the idea of 'playing it safe' in solo queue. Even group queue to be honest unless you're a 12man or maybe 10man and on coms or at least coordinated.

We all have anecdotal examples of when we played against a group of incredible bads who trickled in one at a time to die into our 'death trap' that by sheer coincidence happened to actually get in the right place at approximately the right time.

Also I will say that taking center in Terra Therma drives the win most of the time if only because it's a good place to run headlong into the other team or, if the other team tries to 'circle' lets you pick them apart from high ground or choose an opportune time to move down from the center to attack and destroy isolated pockets of the guys who were too slow/cowardly to take the center.

Crown in Canyon can be, with the right setup, a solid place to take and then advance from.

Rock Fort on Tourmaline is a decent place for north side team to set up and await the direction the south side is taking before making the right flanking rush.

End of the day though if you're in the back you're probably dead weight. To a degree I'd even extend this to 'support' mechs - the fewer mechs in a position to draw fire the more concentrated that fire will be on a smaller number of your allies.

If you're going to launch a match and play, why wouldn't you want to play to win?

The KDR argument -

False argument. Best way to protect KDR is to win consistently and kill more people. Being the last to die does not protect your KDR, it gimps it.

The I'm fragile argument -

Your mech is no more fragile to damage than the enemies. The difference is being the guy doing the shooting and not the guy being shot.

The nobody follows me argument -

So push. Sometimes a leader needs to lead. Sometimes your team will be full of cowards, that just is what it is. Not every match though and the more you win by playing hard the more you show other players that playing hard wins.

Play aggressive, drive the win. Someone is going to push the hardest - why wouldn't it be you?

[Wintersdark]

MischiefSC, on 20 September 2014 - 10:43 PM, said:

The nobody follows me argument -

So push. Sometimes a leader needs to lead. Sometimes your team will be full of cowards, that just is what it is. Not every match though and the more you win by playing hard the more you show other players that playing hard wins.

Play aggressive, drive the win. Someone is going to push the hardest - why wouldn't it be you?

To this in particular:
If "Nobody follows me!"?

1) Announce what you're doing. Don't demand they do something, and definitely don't expect someone else to lead the push. You announce, you go first into the breach. #1 cause of failed pushes in my experience is the guy calling for it not leading from the front. Always assume your PUGmates are cowards who need proper inspiration. "Pushing into D6; follow for victory!"

2) For gods' sake, know what's going on around you. Don't call for a push in one direction while half your team is fighting on another flank and expect them to come with you.

3) Accept that sometimes, people won't follow you. Sometimes, you've got a team of cowardly gits. This team has lost anyways, so at least you're going to be free to drop again quickly.

Don't call people out if they don't follow. Always assume some won't, and accept it. Don't be a ****. People will remember, and will be less likely to work with you in future drops... If you're an a**, they'll be more likely to remember you (and why you suck) than you will be to remember them.


But ultimately, aggression wins battles. Push, push hard, push long. 9 times out of 10, a pug team on the receiving end of a hard inexorable push will fall back, and in doing so will lose what cohesion it may have had, making the defenders act even more passively (reducing their damage output enormously). Any measure of success in a push really encourages your teammates too - PUGgies may be inherently cowardly, but there's a sleeper shark in every single one of them. As soon as they sense blood in the water during a push, they'll redouble their efforts to get their kills in.

[Ghogiel]

Dude it's PUGs. Just stop caring and carry harder.

[Elizander]

Well in my Atlas I wait with my LRM20 until we get a 1-2 kill lead then I tell them we need to push then I facetank all the damage from the remaining mechs. I usually die but we finish the game faster.

[Bishop Steiner]

While I agree with your message, that aggression and taking the initiative wins more than it loses (especially in PUG matches)...... do you really think you can herd the cats? Most pugs are pugs because they don't want to coordinate and take orders. Its short sighted and self defeating, but it preserves their PUG independence, yo.

I still PUG far more than I group drop, and it's pretty much the same story, every match.

[FupDup]

Ghogiel, on 20 September 2014 - 11:02 PM, said:

Dude it's PUGs. Just stop caring and carry harder.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 September 2014 - 11:11 PM, said:

Most pugs are pugs because they don't want to coordinate and take orders.

This is patently untrue. I also pug very extensively, and I spend a lot of time talking to random pugmates (this leads to a large friendslist and lots of random small group play, too!)

It's long been my experience, despite how people like to play it up, that the vast majority of PUG players want to work together, but they lack the tools and leadership to do it. I see people asking if there's a plan in almost every match.

Because what people like more than Being All Independent And Doing Their Own Stupid Thing? It's winning. People like winning. And most puggies are puggies because of necessity more than because they hate cooperation. Either they don't know people, don't feel comfortable talking to strangers, or can't group up due to a huge number of perfectly valid reasons that in no way relate to hating cooperation.

The PUG player who's all "YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO" and runs off doing his own thing isn't very common assuming the fellow doing the telling isn't being a ****; there's a way to talk to puggies, and a way not to talk to puggies, if you want cooperation. I certainly don't see even on in every match and I'd *EXPECT* at least one player who's not going to cooperate in any given match.

What I do see is that in every single match where someone steps up and makes even very loose moves to leadership, people follow along almost every single time. Mister Blasterman, for example, is notorious for his elaborate instructions in PUG matches: "Go here, kill things" with HUD markers. I've never seen the bulk of pug teams not at least try to do what he asks. Ever. And I've been in many matches with (and against) him.

There's just a lot of confirmation bias. You see one player in the odd match be contrary, and then you ascribe his behavior to everyone. But that sort of thing is actually extremely rare.

[1453 R]

I don't play cautiously in PUGs. I try not to be stupid, but I'm also generally going to try and be as aggressive as I can, always probing at the enemy and trying to entice my allies into a push, especially if I'm in a larger, angrier 'Mech that can both kick out the damage and sustain some poundings itself. I've found my favorite Timber Wolf to be fantastic for ramming my team's foot into the door, and when folks see a Timber Wolf advancing and wrecking face, driving its foes in fear before it, you get that blood-in-the-water reaction that's so critical to a good Puglandia victory.

Sometimes. If you're lucky. Other times...well, I end up on my butt with maybe three hundred damage (or less >_>) to my name, but hey. Like the other guy said, just means I can drop again faster and not watch the chickenscheissers get themselves slowly rolled, eh?

[Ghogiel]

Wintersdark, on 20 September 2014 - 11:20 PM, said:

This is patently untrue. I also pug very extensively, and I spend a lot of time talking to random pugmates (this leads to a large friendslist and lots of random small group play, too!)

It's long been my experience, despite how people like to play it up, that the vast majority of PUG players want to work together, but they lack the tools and leadership to do it. I see people asking if there's a plan in almost every match.

Because what people like more than Being All Independent And Doing Their Own Stupid Thing? It's winning. People like winning. And most puggies are puggies because of necessity more than because they hate cooperation. Either they don't know people, don't feel comfortable talking to strangers, or can't group up due to a huge number of perfectly valid reasons that in no way relate to hating cooperation.

The PUG player who's all "YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO" and runs off doing his own thing isn't very common assuming the fellow doing the telling isn't being a ****; there's a way to talk to puggies, and a way not to talk to puggies, if you want cooperation. I certainly don't see even on in every match and I'd *EXPECT* at least one player who's not going to cooperate in any given match.

What I do see is that in every single match where someone steps up and makes even very loose moves to leadership, people follow along almost every single time. Mister Blasterman, for example, is notorious for his elaborate instructions in PUG matches: "Go here, kill things" with HUD markers. I've never seen the bulk of pug teams not at least try to do what he asks. Ever. And I've been in many matches with (and against) him.

There's just a lot of confirmation bias. You see one player in the odd match be contrary, and then you ascribe his behavior to everyone. But that sort of thing is actually extremely rare.

Yeah your opinion is confirmation bias.

[Wintersdark]

Ghogiel, on 20 September 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

Yeah your opinion is confirmation bias.

Except not. When I say "I've never seen the bulk of pug teams not at least try to do what he asks." I mean that literally. Not once have I ever seen the bulk of a team not at least try. Fail, yes, certainly. But they always at least try.

I pay a lot of attention to this, and I don't get upset at the folks who don't follow along. As I spend the vast majority of my play time solo, it behooves me to understand how pug players work. Otherwise, I wouldn't enjoy this game nearly so much.

As I said, there are MANY MANY reasons for players to be solo that don't include anti-social tendencies. Most solo players are at least of average intelligence(grouping up doesn't make you smarter, after all) and as such they understand that teamwork is OP, that cooperation leads to victory.

Pug players are exactly like you, like me, like Fup, like Bishop. There's not some secret subclass of people that encompasses All Those OTHER Solo Players that you meet when playing solo. They aren't monsters who hate people. There's varying skill levels, of course, but they're just players like you. They like to win, too. And yeah, there are some antisocial ******* who just want to watch the world burn, but there's really not that many of them (and you find groups of those folks as well; I'm no stranger to the group queue).

What I DO see frequently? A player, at the start of the match, asks "Any plan?"

Almost never does anyone step up, but when someone suggests something, the team nearly always does that. People ask that a hell of a lot, though.

Lots and lots of PUG players want direction. What's lacking in the PUG queue is leadership, not people willing to follow.

[Ghogiel]

Wintersdark, on 20 September 2014 - 11:39 PM, said:

Except not. When I say "I've never seen the bulk of pug teams not at least try to do what he asks." I mean that literally. Not once have I ever seen the bulk of a team not at least try. Fail, yes, certainly. But they always at least try.

I pay a lot of attention to this, and I don't get upset at the folks who don't follow along. As I spend the vast majority of my play time solo, it behooves me to understand how pug players work. Otherwise, I wouldn't enjoy this game nearly so much.

As I said, there are MANY MANY reasons for players to be solo that don't include anti-social tendencies. Most solo players are at least of average intelligence(grouping up doesn't make you smarter, after all) and as such they understand that teamwork is OP, that cooperation leads to victory.

Pug players are exactly like you, like me, like Fup, like Bishop. There's not some secret subclass of people that encompasses All Those OTHER Solo Players that you meet when playing solo. They aren't monsters who hate people. There's varying skill levels, of course, but they're just players like you. They like to win, too. And yeah, there are some antisocial ******* who just want to watch the world burn, but there's really not that many of them (and you find groups of those folks as well; I'm no stranger to the group queue).

What I DO see frequently? A player, at the start of the match, asks "Any plan?"

Almost never does anyone step up, but when someone suggests something, the team nearly always does that. People ask that a hell of a lot, though.

Lots and lots of PUG players want direction. What's lacking in the PUG queue is leadership, not people willing to follow.

Irrelevent. And also your bias is showing.

[5LeafClover]

Wintersdark, on 20 September 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

To this in particular:
If "Nobody follows me!"?

1) Announce what you're doing. Don't demand they do something, and definitely don't expect someone else to lead the push. You announce, you go first into the breach. #1 cause of failed pushes in my experience is the guy calling for it not leading from the front. Always assume your PUGmates are cowards who need proper inspiration. "Pushing into D6; follow for victory!"

If you hear someone hollar even a semi-sensible call to push, then second it, back him up in chat. In my experience, pugs do want to team play, but they also have a hard time accepting self appointed leaders who are often expletive shouting egotists. This quickly melts if you validate the guy by acknowledging their command.

Also, whether you are the "leader" or his supporter, don't call the push with a single, solitary line in chat. You need to repeat, reinforce, encourage. During lance challenge I played with a guy that did this and 3 times in 4, all 12 went into the cone in Terra and we came out with a strong win.

Then it's down to patience. If you're one of the first through, you need to accept incoming fire for a few seconds while your team mates pile in. Don't slink back. Do take/use blasty weapons. It's amazing who will cower back from a few AC2 shells.

Edited by 5LeafClover, 20 September 2014 - 11:45 PM.

[Parmeggido]

Personally, I'd say people get jaded. Those first several games, where you're running out and trying to figure what's going on, you die fast and early. It's pretty easy to begin developing some bad habits at that point. Running at the first sign of fire, distrusting your fellow pugs, it all comes unfortunately easily.

It's not just about kill death ratios, but about being alive long enough to actually shoot and play the game. Just tonight, I saw an ecm spider that looked like it was going to stay with the advance portion of our team and provide cover. Suddenly, it decided it really needed to start sniping instead. I don't know why, things were working out ok, he wasn't getting shot at, but suddenly we were exposed for the enemy to find. I don't have any reason for him to have suddenly changed tactics other than force of habit built up over several bad games.

I guess what I'm saying is, it's negative reinforcement vs positive reinforcement, and the negative reinforcement gets an early lead. In this game, that usually means an overwhelming victory.

[MischiefSC]

Ghogiel, on 20 September 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Irrelevent. And also your bias is showing.

Actually, that's your bias showing.

In my anecdotal experience and his and several other peoples you can improve your odds in pugs by pugbossing. You don't, so you don't see it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 20 September 2014 - 11:20 PM, said:

This is patently untrue. I also pug very extensively, and I spend a lot of time talking to random pugmates (this leads to a large friendslist and lots of random small group play, too!)

It's long been my experience, despite how people like to play it up, that the vast majority of PUG players want to work together, but they lack the tools and leadership to do it. I see people asking if there's a plan in almost every match.

Because what people like more than Being All Independent And Doing Their Own Stupid Thing? It's winning. People like winning. And most puggies are puggies because of necessity more than because they hate cooperation. Either they don't know people, don't feel comfortable talking to strangers, or can't group up due to a huge number of perfectly valid reasons that in no way relate to hating cooperation.

The PUG player who's all "YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO" and runs off doing his own thing isn't very common assuming the fellow doing the telling isn't being a ****; there's a way to talk to puggies, and a way not to talk to puggies, if you want cooperation. I certainly don't see even on in every match and I'd *EXPECT* at least one player who's not going to cooperate in any given match.

What I do see is that in every single match where someone steps up and makes even very loose moves to leadership, people follow along almost every single time. Mister Blasterman, for example, is notorious for his elaborate instructions in PUG matches: "Go here, kill things" with HUD markers. I've never seen the bulk of pug teams not at least try to do what he asks. Ever. And I've been in many matches with (and against) him.

There's just a lot of confirmation bias. You see one player in the odd match be contrary, and then you ascribe his behavior to everyone. But that sort of thing is actually extremely rare.

if it was the occasional match or player, no, I would not take note. It's rather common.

[Ghogiel]

MischiefSC, on 20 September 2014 - 11:56 PM, said:

Actually, that's your bias showing.

In my anecdotal experience and his and several other peoples you can improve your odds in pugs by pugbossing. You don't, so you don't see it.

Your bias is showing. Because I do. And I win.

[El Bandito]

I did not earn 100-180K per match by LeeRoy-ing every game. Except Mordor.

For me, every pugmate is basically expendable meat. They are there to draw Direwhales's fire, and get the Lights off of me. Sure, I can occasionally play aggressively, but I am never the type of guy who peeks his head out first--unless it is Mordor--cause every second that I am alive equals to more chance to earn C-Bills. And I am critically short of C-Bills in the Light of the Direwhale release and Tier 5 modules.

Solo-Q is just as the name implies--it is not about Us vs. Them, it is about how well you do per game.


I'm totally different beast in group drops, BTW.

Edited by El Bandito, 21 September 2014 - 12:08 AM.

[Sam Slade]

The greatest weakness people show in pugs is vanity; refusing to acknowledge that following a suggested waypoint or plan of attack is a good idea simply to maintain a semblance of cohesion.

Playing it safe in pugs is wholly contextual; I would consider measured aggressive action in conjunction with team awareness 'playing it safe'. Sometimes that kind of action means holding back with team mates, sometimes it means 'carry harder' but then that depends on how well you judge your team mates.

Worth noting that this also depends on wether you play to farm or play to win as sometimes playing to win means getting blown to bits without scoring kills or even damage.

[Ghogiel]

El Bandito, on 21 September 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

I did not earn 100-180K per match by LeeRoy-ing every game. Except Mordor.

For me, every pugmate is basically expendable meat. They are there to draw enemy's fire, and get the Lights off of me. Sure, I can occasionally play aggressively, but I am never the type of guy who peeks his head out first--unless it is Mordor--cause every second that I am alive equals to more chance to earn C-Bills.

Solo-Q is just as the name implies--it is not about us vs. them, it is about how well you do per game.


I'm totally different beast in group drops, BTW.

Well I sort of agree that most of the players will be meat... you will get more $ on wins. So it's best to do everything possible to maximise those. Staying alive is of course very useful but going out in a blaze of awesome sometimes works too.

Edited by Ghogiel, 21 September 2014 - 12:08 AM.

[Moonlander]

I'm pretty cautious. I just assume I will have no support so I just pluck stuff off and push damage without exposing myself. when we're down a few, I'll come out and be more aggressive to try and flip the script but... it just depends on what's left. I can usually move in and just clean up everything with my Dual Gauss and LBX20... I try to keep distance and snipe most of the time.. it's not like I'm afk to come in and score kills. Blowing arms off all match long and getting a kill or 2 until I move in is usually how I approach it.