319 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Ryokens leap, on 22 September 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

You let you're 10 and 11 year olds play a murder simulator?

At that age my friends and I were making arrows that with a piece of string used as a sling could be thrown the length of a football field. We'd stand at opposite ends trying to injure each other.
I'd say computer gaming is very safe.

Kids these days have no idea how to have fun


As for dropping vs. teams. I had no problem with that before the queue split. It was a little harder to win, but much more satisfying when a team announced themselves and your PUG team beat them

[9thDeathscream]

orcrist86, on 22 September 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

If you have indeed read what Russ has been saying then you know that there is one huge thing that will fix mm. Player population. If mwo went steam and tripled it's population everything would be much better. Until then expect compromises and votes instead as a way to put the issue in your hands not the mm.

Fair call. But you not going to retain your population if they get stomped all the time. How many people from steam would download this find a friend, drop a few matches, get wiped and say go to hell MWO. A lot. MM needs to be fixed first to retain its current population and its trickle of new players. I wonder how many newer (last 6 months) players actually stayed? I put money on not a lot. Unless they are hardcore fans of the universe.

Edited by Akulla1980, 22 September 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[MischiefSC]

You get stomped more in pugs. If you're in a 2-4 in group, don't play like a pug. Coordinate. Also, as always when coordination and numbers are not on your side, play aggressively. I do alright in small groups in group queue. If you recognize any of the other groups in your team just say "bravo lance moving to wingman for you alpha". Fall in and hold their right side.

It's the group queue. It sounds like what people want is a casual queue. No way I enforce that.

[orcrist86]

Akulla1980, on 22 September 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

Fair call. But you not going to retain your population if they get stomped all the time. How many people from steam would download this find a friend, drop a few matches, get wiped and say go to hell MWO. A lot. MM needs to be fixed first to retain its current population and its trickle of new players. I wonder how many newer (last 6 months) players actually stayed? I put money on not a lot. Unless they are hardcore fans of the universe.

If the last few months have proven anything, its that this community is nothing but the hardcore enthusiast. Its why the player pop is steady. We are the true believers. Retention of new folks may not be high right now, but MWO isn't looking to get new folks... its looking to retain the faithful. <cough>1 year anniversary gifts<cough>. The focus on MM and new player evangelism I think will happen after CW; if I had to put my money on it.

Edited by orcrist86, 22 September 2014 - 11:28 AM.

[Jaguar Prime]

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

You get stomped more in pugs. If you're in a 2-4 in group, don't play like a pug. Coordinate. Also, as always when coordination and numbers are not on your side, play aggressively. I do alright in small groups in group queue. If you recognize any of the other groups in your team just say "bravo lance moving to wingman for you alpha". Fall in and hold their right side.

It's the group queue. It sounds like what people want is a casual queue. No way I enforce that.

The more complaints I hear about the group queue, the more this is becoming my opinion of the complaints.

[Ghogiel]

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

It's the group queue. It sounds like what people want is a casual queue. No way I enforce that.

The steering wheel underhive is in the solo queue. >_>

[Russ Bullock]

Getting on with it, isn't possible. Any change we make is viewed as a fatal error by some and the right move by others. We need more agreement on what the best trade offs are.

A few things to keep in mind:

1) Solo queue was very upset that any groups at all were in and wiping them.
2) Putting all 2-3 man groups in with the solo queue means removing groups of 9 and 10 from the group queue.

We can make this a lot more competitive but you guys need to let me know what is acceptable. Off the top of my head if we could put groups of 2 and 3 in solo queue and restrict group queue to group sizes of 4, 8 and 12. Then make game mode selection a vote instead of a hard stop. Then make groups of 4 made up of one of each weight class, groups of 8 made of of 2 of each weight class, finally 12 mans made up of the 3,3,3,3.

The match maker would have a grand time of putting matches together.

[UnsafePilot]

Russ Bullock, on 22 September 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

2) Putting all 2-3 man groups in with the solo queue means removing groups of 9 and 10 from the group queue.

That sounds like a small price to pay for a large amount of benefit. So as to say that I imagine there are a lot more people looking to drop with a friend or two for fun than there are 9 and 10 man competitive groups who'd be put off at having to find a few more members.

[Gyrok]

New players should be so far below average elo it is not funny. Instead, they are thrust into the realm of people with roughly 1.1 win/loss and a few thousand matches played. Can new players start at 0 elo please? Solves so many problems right now...

[Revis Volek]

Akulla1980, on 22 September 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Why should we have to do that. Families have as much right to the queues as anybody else.

Thats like saying u should only group up with ur mates in private matches. Nu uh. Don't see that happening!

Oh and why should we pay while others get it for free?

Actually we do this ALL THE TIME when we have enough players on to permit. Then we know we are going against others player that we similar ELO's and ti will be a good fight. I actually HATE when i get stuck fighting a few small groups in my 12. Its not a good show of skill really to beat up on a handicapped team for whatever reason.

But its often wise to not make assumptions about a player base you are not directly involved with.

[pbiggz]

This is a team game, the priority should be teams. You should be getting unaffiliated players INTO groups, not breaking other groups apart.

[Fut]

1453 R, on 22 September 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

How much do you guys wanna bet that if Russ secretly started diverting 2-4 man groups back into the solo queue, without telling a soul, that the Puglandia population wouldn't even notice.

Honestly, I think some people would notice - but they'd notice because the Solo-Q was way better when 2-4 man groups were allowed in. The increased awesomeness would tip people off.

[Revis Volek]

Russ Bullock, on 22 September 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

Getting on with it, isn't possible. Any change we make is viewed as a fatal error by some and the right move by others. We need more agreement on what the best trade offs are.

A few things to keep in mind:

1) Solo queue was very upset that any groups at all were in and wiping them.
2) Putting all 2-3 man groups in with the solo queue means removing groups of 9 and 10 from the group queue.

We can make this a lot more competitive but you guys need to let me know what is acceptable. Off the top of my head if we could put groups of 2 and 3 in solo queue and restrict group queue to group sizes of 4, 8 and 12. Then make game mode selection a vote instead of a hard stop. Then make groups of 4 made up of one of each weight class, groups of 8 made of of 2 of each weight class, finally 12 mans made up of the 3,3,3,3.

The match maker would have a grand time of putting matches together.

This seems more valid then 9 man trying to find that fable 3 man lol.

I am for this....lets give it a shot. Anything to make this MM more predictable and keep it from forcing everyone to have and play at a 1:1.

[Gas Guzzler]

The flexibility of group sizing is just so nice though.. I know some have issues with fairness and getting stomped, but it just happens sometimes. Additionally, many times a team made up of 3-5 smaller groups will give a 10-12 man group a run for there money, and even win. I have been on all sides of this, and I have to say, being able to play in any group at any time is really nice, and I would gladly trade the risk of having a bad game just to play with whoever whenever.

It really comes down to smaller groups losing their pride/stubborness and working together. A lot of times in the group queue, someone will say lets do this, and 2/3 of the team will do that, and the rest will go off by themselves and get killed because they didn't want to cooperate. On the flip side, a small group will say "lets go D5" and the rest will say no or just not do it, and the small group in question will go ahead and do it anyway and get killed.

In either scenario, it is most likely going to end in a wipe, and that isn't the match makers fault. Your chances of success are just so much higher when you decide to do something (other than hide and wait) as a team. Watch your mini map, if you are in a small group and are isolated from your team, you are asking to run into the full force of their team and get kicked to the curb.

You are better off going with a bad strategy as a whole team then going with a good strategy with a couple buddies.

[Gyrok]

*sigh* I would rather the MM stay exactly as it is with almost any size group then go back to shoehorning odd numbers of players into one off groups. This does not fix the issue at all.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 September 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

The flexibility of group sizing is just so nice though.. I know some have issues with fairness and getting stomped, but it just happens sometimes. Additionally, many times a team made up of 3-5 smaller groups will give a 10-12 man group a run for there money, and even win. I have been on all sides of this, and I have to say, being able to play in any group at any time is really nice, and I would gladly trade the risk of having a bad game just to play with whoever whenever.

It really comes down to smaller groups losing their pride/stubborness and working together. A lot of times in the group queue, someone will say lets do this, and 2/3 of the team will do that, and the rest will go off by themselves and get killed because they didn't want to cooperate. On the flip side, a small group will say "lets go D5" and the rest will say no or just not do it, and the small group in question will go ahead and do it anyway and get killed.

In either scenario, it is most likely going to end in a wipe, and that isn't the match makers fault. Your chances of success are just so much higher when you decide to do something (other than hide and wait) as a team. Watch your mini map, if you are in a small group and are isolated from your team, you are asking to run into the full force of their team and get kicked to the curb.

You are better off going with a bad strategy as a whole team then going with a good strategy with a couple buddies.

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kin3ticX]

Russ, my main complaints with the MM are pretty much resolved. Back in 2013ish the other team could have 12 assaults in the 12s queue or I could be ridiculously out-tonned in the 4s/solo queue.

Relatively speaking, the MM is damn good right now.

I think the solo queue should be a sanctuary for people that want to relax a little.

At this point, people just need to carry harder .

[KingCobra]

enlil909 said (I've seen you pop up in the forums for weeks now talking about taking the hard stop off of game mode selection as the, "fix", to group drop queue play imbalance.

With respect Sir, would you please just get on with it!

Personally, i don't see any way it will make any real difference. I think it's a very weak attempt at solving the problem and it will fail. The longer you debate and discuss with us about it the longer it will take you to find out for yourself and then, hopefully, move on to some sort of solution that might work.

As it stands now I try to log in and play a couple matches grouped with my son and his friends and get the same result over and over. We are one of three or four small groups put up against a 12 man and we get brutalized. Rolled over like we're not even there. I have to tell the boys the only solution is for us to disband the group and start dropping PUG. Then we have fun. My point is that under the current system you have set up the group queue is unplayable for new players or small groups. Please do something. Anything would be better than more jawboning at this point.
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And that is why for 3 years I have tried to get Russ and PGI to make and install a new MSN GAMMING ZONE TYPE LOBBY SYSTEM just like we had for Mecharrior3-MechWarrior4 so you can play the way you want 1v1-12v12 with your family and friends and build the community and player leagues back up. My god if (TEN) at MWOlobby can do it in less than 6 months with just himself PGI should be able to do alive-chat-lobby-launcher system in a month with all there talent.

[MischiefSC]

I think an move at this point to put any groups in solo queue would cause a riot. If we make more selection soft and prioritize group sizes above Elo wouldn't that help? This way when a high Elo small group drops they will mix with everyone else. It will keep larger groups playing larger groups. Ideally it will use high Elo mall groups as filler. Small groups will mix with small groups though Elo will not be homogeneous it isn't in pug queue anyway.

[Boris The Spider]

Russ, wouldn’t the easiest way to fix this is to go back to a single queue and let Elo sort it out. Low/mid Elo solos will play mostly other solos and occasionally small low Elo groups, and instead of getting small low Elo groups as filler for the larger high Elo groups we get the high Elo solo players who should have no problem playing in that environment (many have been asking for this option). It should be, over the passage of time self correcting. If a group is stomping, their Elo goes up until they are again, primarily filler for the high Elo groups.

[Russ Bullock]

Kin3ticX, on 22 September 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

Russ, my main complaints with the MM are pretty much resolved. Back in 2013ish the other team could have 12 assaults in the 12s queue or I could be ridiculously out-tonned in the 4s/solo queue.

Relatively speaking, the MM is damn good right now.

I think the solo queue should be a sanctuary for people that want to relax a little.

At this point, people just need to carry harder .

I have to at least high lite these posts to show that not everyone feels the same way as the OP - believe it or not many don't.

It does a pretty dang good job of putting even tonnage per side, on average around 20 tons diff the last time I checked.

I think if we can smartly remove a few restrictions the MM is working with like the game mode selection hard stop.

Also if we left the grouping as it is now, how willing would players be to have more weight restrictions in their group window? for instance you have a group of 2 you would not be allowed to drop with 2 heavies etc. More rules within the group window will also help greatly.