481 replies to this topic

[King of the Woad]

Lorgarn, on 27 September 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Just muzzle it! Honestly, everyons carrying their fun out of the back of the causals!! Perhaps we should all stop complaining and JUST LEAVE. We dont put our money in here any more, and we simply dont play. any more. And THEN we will se how long the die hard will be around without all the soft targest or simply how long the game will be around.

Honestly, I cant take it anymore. Cant play in PUG because you have to play with Beavis and Butt-Head then, cant do groups ether because you cant just bring a friend because you get trampled.

You tell us we just have to get bette we have to be more compatative. So basically you are telling us that we cancle all soccer leauges now, and everyone from the world championship teams to little children playing in the backyard of there school have to compete against each other now, and if the week cant beat the strong its just the fault of the weeker ones, they could simply skip school or there jobs and carry harder.

That is what they are saying. They use other words, like "bads" and "l2p" (even if stated more eloquently), but the gist is "You can have fun any way you want to as long as it's my way."

[Squally160]

King of the Woad, on 27 September 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

That is what they are saying. They use other words, like "bads" and "l2p" (even if stated more eloquently), but the gist is "You can have fun any way you want to as long as it's my way."

That is what they are saying, they call us "Try-hards" but the gist is, "you can have fun any way you want, as long as its my way"

[King of the Woad]

Squally160, on 27 September 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

That is what they are saying, they call us "Try-hards" but the gist is, "you can have fun any way you want, as long as its my way"

I don't think you have a clue what you are saying. You just had to get "Try-hards" in there somehow, yes?

The group queue sucks for small groups. Period. All the "you need more friends" and "just get a larger group" crap is precisely that: crap. I am not especially social. I don't enjoy 12 mans because, well, there are 12 people who I don't really know in them. I won't be bullied but I might leave. If enough people are like me that "might leave", my guess is that PGI will pay attention.

Care to argue more? Or are insults more your speed?

[jaxjace]

Taking a break for a few days myself. Its either get 4 kills and lose on solo que or manage maybe 400 dmg in the group que and lose. **** it. im waiting for an update on the matchmaker.

[Squally160]

King of the Woad, on 27 September 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

I don't think you have a clue what you are saying. You just had to get "Try-hards" in there somehow, yes?

The group queue sucks for small groups. Period. All the "you need more friends" and "just get a larger group" crap is precisely that: crap. I am not especially social. I don't enjoy 12 mans because, well, there are 12 people who I don't really know in them. I won't be bullied but I might leave. If enough people are like me that "might leave", my guess is that PGI will pay attention.

Care to argue more? Or are insults more your speed?

I said the exact same thing you did but from the other viewpoint and its not ok?

this is why this argument is stupid.

[Spades Kincaid]

Squally160, on 26 September 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

"Hey guys, the attack/defend window isnt open, we cant play right now because theres no q for 6+ groups outside cw anymore"

"Can't play" is a fallacy to give the appearance of being persecuted. And it's really weak. You can play in the standard queue just fine, with the same limitation as everyone else. In two groups.


Try again.

[Squally160]

Spades Kincaid, on 27 September 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

"Can't play" is a fallacy to give the appearance of being persecuted. And it's really weak. You can play in the standard queue just fine, with the same limitation as everyone else. In two groups.


Try again.

The whole point of this is he cant play with his friends. He has less of them playing, I shouldnt be punished because I have more online and we prefer big groups.

Try again.

[jackal40]

Spades Kincaid, on 27 September 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

"Can't play" is a fallacy to give the appearance of being persecuted. And it's really weak. You can play in the standard queue just fine, with the same limitation as everyone else. In two groups.


Try again.

So wanting to play with casual friends, not being part of a clan or whatnot = you're cannon fodder for all the better players/members of clans/those with a large number of friends?

Seems to me, you'd want to encourage us casual players. I remember playing WoT as a solo, being complemented on my skills and then invited to join a clan. Where do you think your going to get the up and coming new players? Are they going to seek out your clan and apply for membership?

Just tell me and my casual friends, as well as all the others, to just F*** off and go find another game - we're near the point where we'll oblige you.

Edited by jackal40, 27 September 2014 - 03:32 PM.

[Spades Kincaid]

Squally160, on 27 September 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

The whole point of this is he cant play with his friends. He has less of them playing, I shouldnt be punished because I have more online and we prefer big groups.

Try again.

No, his point is playing with friends in a small group can be a punishing experience, so some choose not to. That's entirely different than trying to literally imply "we can't play" like you did.

Noone is punishing you. There's that persecution thing again. It's an equal limit for all to provide better balance.

I acknowledged why it's understandable for them to be allowing it at this point. Without CW, the units/large groups needed the outlet to help maintain activity and interest. I get it and I'm with you there, despite the negative repercussions it has elsewhere.

Hey, maybe Russ can find enough MM tweaks to get that reversed, so the like-sized larger groups are seeing each other 9 out of 10 matches. If he can then great. They'll still be filler once in a while, but it should resolve much of the problem some small groups have with things currently. I have my doubts he can bring it that far without the queue times for them getting long again.

What you're enjoying right now is everything perfectly favoring you. Fast queues and a dominant large group position that favors more wins against small groups, instead of regularly being matched against other large groups. Something of that needs to give.

If he can't, then they need to come out and you'll need to step up if you want to play as a large group.

jackal40, on 27 September 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

So wanting to play with casual friends, not being part of a clan or whatnot = you're cannon fodder for all the better players/members of clans/those with a large number of friends?

Seems to me, you'd want to encourage us casual players. I remember playing WoT as a solo, being complemented on my skills and then invited to join a clan. Where do you think your going to get the up and coming new players? Are they going to seek out your clan and apply for membership?

Just tell me and my casual friends, as well as all the others, to just F*** off and go find another game - we're near the point where we'll oblige you.

You're barking up the wrong tree there Jackal. Go back and read who that was directed to.

Edited by Spades Kincaid, 27 September 2014 - 04:11 PM.

[Brody319]

me and a friend I was showing the game off too get into a fight. I leave to go to the bathroom while we connect. Come back, the start up is happening. We play for about 10 minutes before we are all dead. Then the stat screen pops up. The enemy team was ALL in the same clan, 12 people group drop, vs a bunch of tiny groups. Why is this fair? If i bring 1 person with me, just put us in the solo drops. We aren't going to be dominating with 2 mechs. Just put us in the match with the solo droppers.

[Valore]

After a few pages of less fractious discussion, we seem to be descending into yelling yet again

I agree with Squall.

You guys cannot have your cake, and eat it at the same time.

On the one hand, you guys hate the fact you're forced into solo queue, because you want to play with your friends. Not playing with them sucks. I agree.

Why is it then okay for us to have to kick some of our friends out of our groups? Why does a bigger group suddenly mean that its fine to exclude people from groups? That makes no sense whatsoever. It still sucks.

People are bringing families and children into this, then let me give you an example.

You and your children want to go on a holiday. You've booked an awesome place, some kind of dream theme park, and all your kids are raring to go.

You arrive, and... you're turned away.

The people there say 'Sorry, we only allow two kids per parent. You have 5 kids. You'll have to send one home or pay a ludicrous penalty fee which no one in their right mind would pay.'

Does it suck any less that you can bring some of your kids, but some won't be able to come?

Spades Kincaid, on 27 September 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

What you're enjoying right now is everything perfectly favoring you. Fast queues and a dominant large group position that favors more wins against small groups, instead of regularly being matched against other large groups. Something of that needs to give.

Using 'have a fast queue' as some kind of reasoning is somewhat inane isn't it? Its the same as saying 'big groups should have to waste time looking for games'.

Not only that, the game is based on teamwork. To suddenly have to put a brake on things, and start putting limits on how much teamwork is allowed seems completely counter-intuitive.

Let me give an example.

If you said 'I hate losing. This sucks. I'm gonna practice like mad, read all the guides, learn the meta, and then get damn good and come back and beat the crap out of these guys.'

And I said 'Sorry, no, you're limited to reading one guide only, and if you get too good, we start taking armour off your mech, and you'll not be allowed to carry the same loadout every match so you have to use other weapons. You can't get too skilled, it will impact the fun of others'

You'd be incensed. You'd call the game stupid, arbitrary, and you'd be completely right.

So why is it us saying 'You know what, the inability ingame to communicate is terrible, I'm gonna get some friends, and we're gonna go on voice comms to talk to each other'

And you saying 'Sorry, no you can't, you'll be much too organised compared to others, you can only play with some of your friends, others will have to play elsewhere'.

Suddenly, that's okay?

The fact is, teamwork limits are stupid. Its no less stupid that limiting the amount of time and effort someone can put into the game. After all, all said and done, teamwork is simply another skill, isn't it.

The call for hard caps on groups is a patchwork and crude fix. I'd rather take a massive Elo matching handicap and be able to play with my friends.

My preferred solution, would be a game mode where two sides have different objectives. The smaller groups/solos get to be the side representing pirates and raiding parties, the organised groups get to be defenders who need teamwork to win.

One side has an organised team. Say 8 man and above. They have a base, with turrets, and several buildings that are destructible and marked as critical.

The other side is solo and up to 3 man team only, with time based respawn.

Game ends when time is up, say around 10 minutes, or if all of the organised team and their critical structures are destroyed.

Points are tallied accordingly, with different scoring criteria.

Defence team gets credited for the usual kills assists etc, as well as how long they survived, as well as how many of their buildings are still standing.

Offence team gets credited for kills, assists, etc, and how many buildings they destroyed, as well as how few respawns they used. The more they respawn, the less they get.

Both sides get to have fun doing what they enjoy.

Edited by Valore, 27 September 2014 - 05:32 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Spades Kincaid, on 27 September 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

"Can't play" is a fallacy to give the appearance of being persecuted. And it's really weak. You can play in the standard queue just fine, with the same limitation as everyone else. In two groups.


Try again.

This is the equivalent of a bully asking the weaker kid "Why are you hitting yourself?" repeatedly while hitting him in the face with his own hand.

"Can't drop with my casual friends" means "I cannot enjoy dropping with my casual friends because the game play choices are not fun so it's better to quit than do something that sucks."

Try again, but leave the semantic games in the box.

Quote

You guys cannot have your cake, and eat it at the same time.

By the same token, don't crap on my cupcake and tell me it's frosting either.

Again, do not try to force people to play in a way they do not like when they can and should easily be able to have a much more enjoyable experience. This is the attitude of an elitist entitlement junkie and not a good business model because that money and audience WILL walk away and IS walking away already. My money's staying home till this is fixed.

Edited by Kjudoon, 27 September 2014 - 05:38 PM.

[Valore]

Kjudoon, on 27 September 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

By the same token, don't crap on my cupcake and tell me it's frosting either.

Again, do not try to force people to play in a way they do not like when they can and should easily be able to have a much more enjoyable experience.

Which is why I said,

Valore, on 27 September 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

The fact is, teamwork limits are stupid. Its no less stupid that limiting the amount of time and effort someone can put into the game. After all, all said and done, teamwork is simply another skill, isn't it.

The call for hard caps on groups is a patchwork and crude fix. I'd rather take a massive Elo matching handicap and be able to play with my friends.

Incidentally, this:

Kjudoon, on 27 September 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

My money's staying home till this is fixed.

Is exactly what happened before the MM was fixed. Most organised groups broke up, went on to play other things. For us it was BF4.

No point using it as some kind of threat, it just makes you seem entitled. Its basic understanding isn't it, if you're not happy, you won't spend money. PGI is smart enough to look at their numbers to figure out what's happening.

Edited by Valore, 27 September 2014 - 05:56 PM.

[Squally160]

Kjudoon, on 27 September 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

"Can't drop with my casual friends" means "I cannot enjoy dropping with my casual friends because the game play choices are not fun so it's better to quit than do something that sucks."

Again, do not try to force people to play in a way they do not like when they can and should easily be able to have a much more enjoyable experience. This is the attitude of an elitist entitlement junkie and not a good business model because that money and audience WILL walk away and IS walking away already. My money's staying home till this is fixed.

*removed some stuff I am not responding to directly*

We know you think yo uCANT play, and WE UNDERSTAND. It sucks. But most of the solutions are basically boiled down to:

We cant have fun our way, so you shouldnt be able to have fun either.

That is why we are pushing back so hard.

If there was a solution where both groups would be treated equally and fairly, and everyone able to play how they want, I would be all over that in a heartbeat for you guys.

But instead, its suggestions that limit our playstyle, so you can have your playstyle.

The system we have now, is what we have. it sucks for small groups, it does. But it brought big groups back to the game entirely. People who had left already, are coming back and spending more. For isntance, before the q change, I spent maybe 20$ tops because it was just BRUTAL to play with all of my friends. I had no interest in spending money. Now that we can drop in and have a games every night, ive bought a year of prem time, and both clan packs, and a few other heroes.

If small groups had the same option, I bet you would spend money too, but if I lose my ability to play in 12 mans, I stop spending also.

So, dont take away our game mode, just to make yourself happy.

[Kjudoon]

Quote

On the one hand, you guys hate the fact you're forced into solo queue, because you want to play with your friends. Not playing with them sucks. I agree.

Why is it then okay for us to have to kick some of our friends out of our groups? Why does a bigger group suddenly mean that its fine to exclude people from groups? That makes no sense whatsoever. It still sucks.

No one... and I repeat NO ONE has said to do away with the 5+ queue. It's just you should be dealing with other 5+ groups nearly exclusively, or with those who want to get punched in the face by you.

By the same token NO ONE should be forced to play with you.

Quote

People are bringing families and children into this, then let me give you an example.

You and your children want to go on a holiday. You've booked an awesome place, some kind of dream theme park, and all your kids are raring to go.

You arrive, and... you're turned away.

The people there say 'Sorry, we only allow two kids per parent. You have 5 kids. You'll have to send one home or pay a ludicrous penalty fee which no one in their right mind would pay.'

Does it suck any less that you can bring some of your kids, but some won't be able to come?

This is a total false equivalency and irrelevant for the reasons I stated above. You are not entitled to play with anyone who does not enjoy your playstyle. Either they get to opt out and continue supporting the game by playing a game mode they like, or they quit, taking their time, support and money elsewhere to a place that DOES meet their entertainment needs. Why you are so adamant at enslaving people to be your punching bag I just get more and more revolted with as you talk about how nobody should be able to have what they enjoy but you.

Quote

Using 'have a fast queue' as some kind of reasoning is somewhat inane isn't it? Its the same as saying 'big groups should have to waste time looking for games'.

Glib answer: Private Queues. You can't find enough people to play with, start networking with other pro teams and have private matches. I know of at least 5 other units BEGGING people to do private match practices with them. After all, that's what you've told small groups to do IIRC. As part of my duties with the Seraphim, I also coordinate our "Operation Gumbo" RPG. This is a traditional TT game where mech combat is resolved in private matches using MWO. It's been a huge success with 3 GMs running small groups against a much larger OpFor where they play the 'bad guys' and play missions that are much more than Conquest/Skirmish/Assault. We do convoy protects, raids, intel thefts, all sorts of stuff using this as the basis then mix in OOME (Out Of Mech Experience Roleplay) to run the storyline. That's over 20 players a week we take out of the public queue because we chose to find ourselves a way to make this work. Of course, we're now PAYING for a free game, which ticks us off on one level, but those that do don't seem to mind to do something more fun than getting kicked in the teeth all day long by thugs and go up against players of similar skill without need for MM screwing up the works.

As for the rest, I'm sorry, that's nonsensical drivel that boils down to more "I got mine and the rest of you shut up and like it". You should read the comic from TheOatmeal "What it's like to to play online games as a grown-up". My unit code prevents me from posting this due to some language, but it's the reason the protagonist does what he does at the end.

[Valore]

Kjudoon, on 27 September 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

No one... and I repeat NO ONE has said to do away with the 5+ queue. It's just you should be dealing with other 5+ groups nearly exclusively, or with those who want to get punched in the face by you.

By the same token NO ONE should be forced to play with you.

'We don't really want to make you unable to play, but we'd like you to sit in this queue where you'll possibly get one game an hour, on a good day. Normal days, you don't get to play at all'.

Want me to give you an equally glib and facetious reply?

'If you don't want to get facepunched by better teamwork, go play solo'.

Aaaannnd we're back to yelling

Like I said, I'm okay if the skill levels are horrifyingly different, there's a call for that to be made more fair. Give us an Elo penalty even.

But to make us jump through hoops in HOPES of getting a game? Like we're ever going to support that. Seriously.

Edited by Valore, 27 September 2014 - 06:15 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Squally160, on 27 September 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

*removed some stuff I am not responding to directly*

We know you think yo uCANT play, and WE UNDERSTAND. It sucks. But most of the solutions are basically boiled down to:

We cant have fun our way, so you shouldnt be able to have fun either.

<snip>
So, dont take away our game mode, just to make yourself happy.

I see. So your fun is based on abusing people who don't enjoy being abused, plus your fun is superior to other people's fun and therefore be the punching bag or leave because we incorrectly believe any change will threaten our favorite way to play the game?

Good luck with that line of thinking and thanks for proving how entitled and selfish that philosophy is.

I'm sure you and your trollish legions will spend much more money and make the game far more successful for PGI as we all go somewhere else.

Valore, on 27 September 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

'We don't really want to make you unable to play, but we'd like you to sit in this queue where you'll possibly get one game an hour, on a good day. Normal days, you don't get to play at all'.

Want me to give you an equally glib and facetious reply?

'If you don't want to get facepunched by better teamwork, go play solo'.

Aaaannnd we're back to yelling

Like I said, I'm okay if the skill levels are horrifyingly different, there's a call for that to be made more fair. Give us an Elo penalty even. But to make us jump through hoops? Like we're ever going to support that. Seriously.

....aaaaand another false equivalency and choices.

Edited by Kjudoon, 27 September 2014 - 06:16 PM.

[Squally160]

Kjudoon, on 27 September 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

No one... and I repeat NO ONE has said to do away with the 5+ queue. It's just you should be dealing with other 5+ groups nearly exclusively, or with those who want to get punched in the face by you.

By the same token NO ONE should be forced to play with you.



This is a total false equivalency and irrelevant for the reasons I stated above. You are not entitled to play with anyone who does not enjoy your playstyle. Either they get to opt out and continue supporting the game by playing a game mode they like, or they quit, taking their time, support and money elsewhere to a place that DOES meet their entertainment needs. Why you are so adamant at enslaving people to be your punching bag I just get more and more revolted with as you talk about how nobody should be able to have what they enjoy but you.



Glib answer: Private Queues. You can't find enough people to play with, start networking with other pro teams and have private matches. I know of at least 5 other units BEGGING people to do private match practices with them. After all, that's what you've told small groups to do IIRC. As part of my duties with the Seraphim, I also coordinate our "Operation Gumbo" RPG. This is a traditional TT game where mech combat is resolved in private matches using MWO. It's been a huge success with 3 GMs running small groups against a much larger OpFor where they play the 'bad guys' and play missions that are much more than Conquest/Skirmish/Assault. We do convoy protects, raids, intel thefts, all sorts of stuff using this as the basis then mix in OOME (Out Of Mech Experience Roleplay) to run the storyline. That's over 20 players a week we take out of the public queue because we chose to find ourselves a way to make this work. Of course, we're now PAYING for a free game, which ticks us off on one level, but those that do don't seem to mind to do something more fun than getting kicked in the teeth all day long by thugs and go up against players of similar skill without need for MM screwing up the works.

As for the rest, I'm sorry, that's nonsensical drivel that boils down to more "I got mine and the rest of you shut up and like it". You should read the comic from TheOatmeal "What it's like to to play online games as a grown-up". My unit code prevents me from posting this due to some language, but it's the reason the protagonist does what he does at the end.

They have talked about limiting the 5+ q to only 5+.

That means we can drop in teams of:

5,6,7, or 12. Literally no other sizes.

so we go from people being able to play 2-10, and 12, to 2-7, or 12.

Im not for that, at all. Our group often fluctuates in size, we go from 2 early in the night, to 12, but bounce around a lot the whole time. the number of pure 12 mans we drop in a night can be counted on 1 hand usually, the rest of the time we are around 8-10.

So we shouldnt be able to play 8-10 anymore because we just CAN NOT find a group that will match us up properly now?

again, its "we dont have anything, were going to take things away from you" mentality that I am against.

also, the private matches, was brought up first by a small group proponent, not someone against it. But glad its ok for you to tell us to go to them anyways.

[n r g]

NO, from someone that rolls in 12 mans quite a bit or at the very minimum a 4 man - YES, something needs to be done.

The balance is out of whack and their needs to be something implemented to atleast get (3) 4mans going against a 12 man, at the very least - not a group of 2 players, that is absurd.

[Valore]

Kjudoon, on 27 September 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

....aaaaand another false equivalency and choices.

Which part is false? The perpetual waiting? You think we quit the game for some other reason?

You mean we should be FORCED into private games and making organisation etc, while its unfair for us to enquire why people don't join groups/make friends/go check out things like NGNG?

Double standards, for EVERYONE!

Edited by Valore, 27 September 2014 - 06:19 PM.