29 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

My worry is that you didnt really get good results for a basic fundamental reason.

Its my impression from the mech availability and such, that you basically put long time players and founders and forum warriors, against people in trial mechs, grinding out bad variants, and against the most available mechs, which means also, the most inexperienced or casual players.

[Brody319]

I think if they want good data, they should change the trials. 1 Clan and IS mech in each weight class. Skill is a big factor and the people who bought Clan mechs were experienced players. Give the new players decent Clan mechs, and see if it changes the statistics.

[Zyllos]

The results, it being bad, is going to affect the outcome in what way?

In that Clan mechs will receive more nerfs or that Inner Sphere mechs will be underpowered?

The problem with labeling the current results as bad is that I see them as correct. CW, which allows IS vs Clans, will contain all the above type of players, those who run "bad" variants (FYI, there is no bad variants), those who are still grinding out skills, and those who are in trial mechs.

So, to get a complete picture, you have to allow those who want to run these types of mechs into the results to get a complete picture.

Edited by Zyllos, 23 September 2014 - 10:13 AM.

[Kain Demos]

I've brought this up in many of the IS bitching and moaning threads and usually get told "shut up, there was a Nova PRIME available as a Trial so there were just as many noobs on Clan teams".

Right, maybe a HANDFUL at the most of new players in a mech that they probably overheated in and died right away.

[Flapdrol]

Why didn't you post in one of the 500 other topics that say exactly the same instead of creating a new one?

[Brody319]

Zyllos, on 23 September 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

The results, it being bad, is going to affect the outcome in what way?

In that Clan mechs will receive more nerfs or that Inner Sphere mechs will be underpowered?

The problem with labeling the current results as bad is that I see them as correct. CW, which allows IS vs Clans, will contain all the above type of players, those who run "bad" variants (FYI, there is no bad variants), those who are still grinding out skills, and those who are in trial mechs.

So, to get a complete picture, you have to allow those who want to run these types of mechs into the results to get a complete picture.

I see the data as interesting, but not good in the long run. Right now if they turn on CW newer players will probably be put into IS mechs, trails and just being cheaper. When they removed newer players as best they could from the data both were about equal with Clans edging out just slightly, but not enough to be concidered conclusive. Giving players a mech in each weight class allows them to get better data, new players get the mechs that arguably require more skill to use. Nova has to be bound right and fired correctly or you risk Overheating and coring yourself, Kitfox is pretty balanced but still its a light mech, all we see so far is what newer players can do in lighter clan mechs. give them some bigger ones and check the data again. If these Clan mechs are over powered, then when newer unskilled players use them, they should do much better on average than if they were in a IS mech of equal tonage.

[Syncline]

I'm glad that PGI is running these tests, but they're less meaningful until every Clan mech in the test is available for C-Bills.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

There are some issues with the tests. The one I think could have the biggest impact is that the solo queue has always been where people take questionable builds. During my very few matches from one of the test I saw about 1-2 "meta" approved mechs on the IS side per match.

But even considering this and the other issues, it could not account for clans winning ~90% and more recently ~73% of the time. Furthermore, we have the competitive players saying they will be playing Clan for that extra edge (I promise they didn't reach this conclusion without research).

At any rate, their next purposed step is IS quirks, and I'm all for buffing IS mechs. After that a Clan XL engine nerf. Probably a heat penalty and possibly a movement penalty, I think heat is warranted, the movement I'm less crazy about but we shall see.

[KraftySOT]

There are definitely bad variants and bad load outs.

Qualitatively, have you ever spectated someone and been compelled to yell at them for their noob groupings or load outs, and they were piloting a clan mech?

And yeah I think its great theyre testing it. But like you and I said in the OP...I dont think theyre very meaningful until such time as the skill level of players is more diffused by the availability of clan mechs.

Though it seems theyre not going to be doing any more clan nerfs, even though the test saw 70% clan win rates, so they may very well be aware of the problem in their data collecting.

[KraftySOT]

And yeah the clan mechs ARE better, the competitive players gravitating to them arent doing that for no reason.

However in the stats in the game we have today, I think alot of it now after the nerfs (which may have been extreme) is the way it is because of the person behind the clan mech more so than the clan mech itself. No one just DLed this and hopped into anything but a Nova, and only recently. All those Timberwolf pilots blowing things up paid for that privelage, or have played enough to buy a clan mech and thus know the meta at least to some degree and wont be small laser boating.

You have alot of the same problems in any non red vs blue game...WWIIOL/Battleground Europe, Heroes and Generals, War Thunder, even high level war games like War in the East or War in the Pacific.

There is always an "introductory" side, and that side always suffers from having "noobs".

Then the other side gets nerfed into parity of results, both sides start winning at the same ratio, but the experienced players who gravitated towards "the more powerful side" are now fighting an uphill battle, and theyre winning with whats actually lesser equipment, because the other side is STILL the introductory side.

Battleground Europe and Heroes and Generals have this problem because most experience WWII people go for the Germans, they had the best stuff, and people like being the bad guy. The allies are of course the side that the people who play the game, live in, so if youre running your new player campaign, youre pimping the allies and bringing in the new players through that side.

And of course the more you do that, the more you diffuse the good players on the introductory side, and are forced with the proposition of nerfing again. Which in a game where youre shelling out money constantly, like a PTP plan like WWIIOL, or a F2P model like this...its bad having your crap nerfed.

Now when CW comes around, you may end up in a situation where the IS noobs are still solo dropping public games, while the IS players who know what theyre doing come to CW, and stomp the clans flat because they were over nerfed based on the player pool at the time.

Those other games dont throw in things that divide the player base and weed out certain elements...

So I have no idea whats going to happen. But it seems like a possibility.

Edited by KraftySOT, 23 September 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[El Bandito]

I'm going to drive the Direwolf, master it, and laugh at those who said Clan mechs are not OP.

Got my Gauss macro ready.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 September 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[Phaeric Cyrh]

LOL at all the clan fan boys in here still trying to rationalize.

[Kain Demos]

El Bandito, on 23 September 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

I'm going to drive the Direwolf, master it, and laugh at those who said Clan mechs are not OP.

Got my Gauss macro ready.

If you think you just bought "EZ mode" you are in for a rude awakening especially if all you do is PUG. Be prepared to be left behind and owned frequently.

Phaeric Cyrh, on 23 September 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

LOL at all the clan fan boys in here still trying to rationalize.

Its not hard to see the facts behind the numbers unless you have your emotional blinders on.

[El Bandito]

Kain Thul, on 23 September 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

If you think you just bought "EZ mode" you are in for a rude awakening especially if all you do is PUG. Be prepared to be left behind and owned frequently.

I have been driving 300 Std Atlai since closed beta. I would worry about other teammates who have no map awareness instead.

[KraftySOT]

Phaeric Cyrh, on 23 September 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

LOL at all the clan fan boys in here still trying to rationalize.

I own one mech. An Inner Sphere Banshee

I dont want to get into CW and start stomping clanners. That would simply be the last straw lol

[Angel of Annihilation]

One of the big issues with these tests is that often when this happens, IS players tend to automatically believe they are going to lose which has a tendency to skew the results quite significantly.

I know from first hand experience back when they came up with that bogus 90% win rate for clans that every IS team I played on had at least 3-4 players who QQ'ed about the Clans and did everything from discoing to suicide rushing a generally left only 8-9 IS players trying to defeat 12 Clan mechs. 90% win rate when it is 12 Clan mechs vs 8-9 IS mechs, yep that makes sense to me and it absolutely has nothing to do with Clan mechs being better.

[Phaeric Cyrh]

Same old BS.. too many threads.

[Kain Demos]

Viktor Drake, on 23 September 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

One of the big issues with these tests is that often when this happens, IS players tend to automatically believe they are going to lose which has a tendency to skew the results quite significantly.

I know from first hand experience back when they came up with that bogus 90% win rate for clans that every IS team I played on had at least 3-4 players who QQ'ed about the Clans and did everything from discoing to suicide rushing a generally left only 8-9 IS players trying to defeat 12 Clan mechs. 90% win rate when it is 12 Clan mechs vs 8-9 IS mechs, yep that makes sense to me and it absolutely has nothing to do with Clan mechs being better.

I've seen this too, people see we are team of mostly IS mechs and say "waht's the point?". I've also seen many people ***** about "p2w" and "clans OP" and rage quit.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Why is there this belief that everyone who bought the Clan packs with real money are expert, pro players?

[Kain Demos]

Kevjack, on 23 September 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Why is there this belief that everyone who bought the Clan packs with real money are expert, pro players?

The new players that come to the game via the F2P model are not going to have 'mechs that are only (ormostly) available for cash.

The people who bought the clan mech packs as soon as they were available in June were mostly long time MW fans/players and MWO players since closed beta.

How many new to the game (and franchise) players do you think stumbled upon MWO and then pumped a few 100 into it wihtout knowing anything about it?

Edited by Kain Thul, 23 September 2014 - 11:54 AM.