27 replies to this topic

[Rusty Nails]

Players are never going to follow the book cannon in regards to clan philosophy, they will always tend toward the advantage, especially those that never read the books. These players especially will tend toward the Clan Mechs and Focus Fire for the simple fact the clan mechs are better and they want to win.

If this is the case and according to Russ 12 vs 10 is too much of a programming nightmare then change the tonnage or weight classes in the team make up. Instead of matching 3 of each weight class to each team, handicap (if you want to call it that) the clans to 4 lights, 4 mediums, 2 heavies, and 2 assaults.

I'm not a programmer so I'm not sure how difficult this would be but I'm certainly not looking forward to getting my ass handed to me while PGI figures it out. At least this would be an effort to try and even things up.

[Almond Brown]

Not to harp but the term is "Canon" fcol.

[Wolfways]

Rusty Nails, on 23 September 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Players are never going to follow the book cannon in regards to clan philosophy, they will always tend toward the advantage, especially those that never read the books. These players especially will tend toward the Clan Mechs and Focus Fire for the simple fact the clan mechs are better and they want to win.

Imo people should get over the idea that mechs are balanced. Even IS mechs aren't balanced.
MWO is a team game. Stop thinking "me" and think "us".
Being clan does not mean "win".

Edited by Wolfways, 23 September 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[Lil Cthulhu]

Rusty Nails, on 23 September 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Players are never going to follow the book cannon

I would follow a book cannon.

Edited by Lil Cthulhu, 23 September 2014 - 10:40 AM.

[Rusty Nails]

Sorry, yes you are correct "Canon".

Yes, MWO is a "Team Game" based on a book series and game in which the clans value individual combat.

You say "Clan doesn't mean Win", do you also say the clan mech are equal to the IS mechs?

[Kain Demos]

It would be nice if once at least the wave 1 clan 'mechs are all out for c bills if they get rid of the mixed queue completely. I'm sure IS will likely ahve mirror matches in that case sometimes but that's not an issue.

Well since they don't want to spend any time or money on 10v12 they could just go by tonnage instead of a 4/4/2/2 vs 3/3/3/3 kind of setup.

Since the heaviest 'mechs in any weight class are nearly always the best it would definitely serve to mix things up. As a clan-only player I'd love the opportunity to only queue up in Clan vs IS matches and to always be out-tonned by 25-50%.

[Almond Brown]

Kain Thul, on 23 September 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

It would be nice if once at least the wave 1 clan 'mechs are all out for c bills if they get rid of the mixed queue completely. I'm sure IS will likely ahve mirror matches in that case sometimes but that's not an issue.

Well since they don't want to spend any time or money on 10v12 they could just go by tonnage instead of a 4/4/2/2 vs 3/3/3/3 kind of setup.

Since the heaviest 'mechs in any weight class are nearly always the best it would definitely serve to mix things up. As a clan-only player I'd love the opportunity to only queue up in Clan vs IS matches and to always be out-tonned by 25-50%.

Unless they "FORCE" that only max tonnage Mechs per category can be used, aka 100t x 2 in the Assault section, you could face a problem with 2 players taking 2 WH's and thus giving up and additional 30t that Match.

Same issue as back in the day where the AWS gave up 20t to every Atlas the other Team got in the Assault class based tonnage matching. It was not pretty. Besides, what happens if your 25-50% machismo don't work out so good? Change it back or you willing to suck it up??

Edited by Almond Brown, 23 September 2014 - 11:13 AM.

[Heffay]

I don't see what the problem is with balancing Clan and IS mechs. Why do people have such heartburn over this issue?

[Kain Demos]

Almond Brown, on 23 September 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Unless they "FORCE" that only max tonnage Mechs per category can be used, aka 100t x 2 in the Assault section, you could face a problem with 2 players taking 2 WH's and thus giving up and additional 30t that Match.

Same issue as back in the day where the AWS gave up 20t to every Atlas the other Team got in the Assault class based tonnage matching. It was not pretty. Besides, what happens if your 25-50% machismo don't work out so good? Change it back or you willing to suck it up??

Why would I want it changed back? The clans always prided themselves on using the minimum resources to get the job done.

[Rusty Nails]

Kain Thul, on 23 September 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Why would I want it changed back? The clans always prided themselves on using the minimum resources to get the job done.

Yes the Clans did not waste anything but the reason they always wanted to bid to that minimum level was to test their skill and genetic superiority. In this instance, players are not interested in testing or balance, they just want the best mech they can drop in to win.

I have not problem with tonnage brackets, I would much rather have them, but I'm sure that would also be a programming nightmare.

[Rusty Nails]

Heffay, on 23 September 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

I don't see what the problem is with balancing Clan and IS mechs. Why do people have such heartburn over this issue?

If there isn't balance and it's all about winning, the majority of players will migrate to the Clan mechs out of survival.
One of the reasons the IS was able to fight back is that they had numbers on their side.

[StalaggtIKE]

Interesting concept. I would like to see this on the PTS.

[MarineTech]

With everybody already harping on how long matchmaker takes to get you into a match, and how lopsided battles are, do we REALLY want to be throwing even more variables at the thing?

[Rusty Nails]

MarineTech, on 23 September 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

With everybody already harping on how long matchmaker takes to get you into a match, and how lopsided battles are, do we REALLY want to be throwing even more variables at the thing?

Let me ask you a question, do you believe the clan mech are XX percent better than the IS mech, leaving the pilot and team skill and coordination out of the equation?

If so how long do you think IS pilots are going to stick around getting their ass handed to them day after day because they are using bolt actions vs assault rifles.

I would rather wait for a decent match up.

[Wolfways]

Rusty Nails, on 23 September 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Sorry, yes you are correct "Canon".

Yes, MWO is a "Team Game" based on a book series and game in which the clans value individual combat.

You say "Clan doesn't mean Win", do you also say the clan mech are equal to the IS mechs?

Of course they aren't equal. Some are good, some are bad, just like IS mechs. But because clan equipment is lighter and takes less crit slots the only way to "balance" clan mechs with IS is to make clan mechs very underpowered. Imo clan should stay slightly OP compared to IS and matches should be 12v10. Being two down and in two units instead of three is a huge disadvantage already.

But then, even if clan and IS were balanced I'd still want 12v10.


Also, tonnage matters little in this game. A Jagermech outclasses an Atlas easily (not counting bad builds).

Edited by Wolfways, 23 September 2014 - 12:02 PM.

[Heffay]

Rusty Nails, on 23 September 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

If there isn't balance and it's all about winning, the majority of players will migrate to the Clan mechs out of survival.
One of the reasons the IS was able to fight back is that they had numbers on their side.

Yeah, but that makes for horrible gameplay. Lore should guide the game direction, but they shouldn't be slaves to ideas that would make for a horrible game. Balance is important, and they should strive to make all mechs as close as possible in terms of balance.

If you want "Clan superiority", do it through RP elements like "better trained, newer equipment, more experience."

[Clit Beastwood]

Rusty Nails, on 23 September 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Yes, MWO is a "Team Game" based on a book series and game in which the clans value individual combat.

Yes, that's true. MWO is a team game. We aren't playing tabletop. We aren't playing a book. We're playing a team based simulation loosely based on battletech lore, with deviations to make it actually fun.

Rusty Nails, on 23 September 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

You say "Clan doesn't mean Win", do you also say the clan mech are equal to the IS mechs?

It's true, clan mechs aren't an auto-win. All the armchair stats gathered so far, by individual players are flawed. Until we can take the same pilot, make them do 50 drops in a single IS mech, then 50 drops in a single Clan mech, then IS again, then Clan again... we won't be able to build accurate statistics. What PGI provided so far is "clan mechs win XX amount of the time" - well, of course. Many of us have been playing for years, and we're bored with our IS mechs. The result is:

- Long time players (aka "more experienced veterans") are more willing to spend money on clan mechs.
- Clan mechs have weapons with long ranges (and durations), that reward mech positioning, aim, and ability to hold on-target. Three things honed over multiple years of playing.
- Clan mechs are expensive. This leads to automatic P2W accusations.

I own 130-140 something mechs and I play them all. Some clan mechs are great. Some IS mechs are great. They don't need to be *identical* to be "balanced". Lights, the IS has a clear advantage. Everywhere else, it's murky. The stormcrow is a beast, yes, but a meta shadowhawk can still hold its own. The damage output is low on the shadowhawk, but if you can aim, that high-mounted dual AC5 and the PPC poke precise holes as well as they ever did, with the benefit of minimal exposure. Heavies... The timberwolf is great - yes. The CTF is no slouch though, neither is the orion. Or several of the others. Sure, a dragon is outclassed against a timberwolf, but a dragon is outclassed against a cataphract most of the time too. Assaults... The DWF is a monster, but the atlas is still a pretty good "anchor" for a team. It's six of one, half dozen of the other. To the average player, "Balance" means "nerf the things that kill me". People need to statwarrior less and play more, becoming a better pilot will do a lot more than adjustments to speed, heat, etc. will.

A huge part of this game is identifying and managing risk. LRM boats are much hated because there's little risk and high reward. Poptarts were hated for the same thing.

Edited by Fierostetz, 23 September 2014 - 12:09 PM.

[Rusty Nails]

Wolfways, on 23 September 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

Of course they aren't equal. Some are good, some are bad, just like IS mechs. But because clan equipment is lighter and takes less crit slots the only way to "balance" clan mechs with IS is to make clan mechs very underpowered. Imo clan should stay slightly OP compared to IS and matches should be 12v10. Being two down and in two units instead of three is a huge disadvantage already.

But then, even if clan and IS were balanced I'd still want 12v10.


Also, tonnage matters little in this game. A Jagermech outclasses an Atlas easily (not counting bad builds).

Russ has already said 10 vs 12 is not going to happen. I'm just posing an option to try because it is obvious that the Clan mechs are superior and if you're not going to impose the Canon restrictions and you're not going to impose the popular tonnage restrictions that the MW leagues did. I thought this would be a possible option.

[Rusty Nails]

Fierostetz, on 23 September 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Yes, that's true. MWO is a team game. We aren't playing tabletop. We aren't playing a book. We're playing a team based simulation loosely based on battletech lore, with deviations to make it actually fun.


It's true, clan mechs aren't an auto-win. All the armchair stats gathered so far, by individual players are flawed. Until we can take the same pilot, make them do 50 drops in a single IS mech, then 50 drops in a single Clan mech, then IS again, then Clan again... we won't be able to build accurate statistics. What PGI provided so far is "clan mechs win XX amount of the time" - well, of course. Many of us have been playing for years, and we're bored with our IS mechs. The result is:

- Long time players (aka "more experienced veterans") are more willing to spend money on clan mechs.
- Clan mechs have weapons with long ranges (and durations), that reward mech positioning, aim, and ability to hold on-target. Three things honed over multiple years of playing.
- Clan mechs are expensive. This leads to automatic P2W accusations.

I own 130-140 something mechs and I play them all. Some clan mechs are great. Some IS mechs are great. They don't need to be *identical* to be "balanced". Lights, the IS has a clear advantage. Everywhere else, it's murky. The stormcrow is a beast, yes, but a meta shadowhawk can still hold its own. The damage output is low on the shadowhawk, but if you can aim, that high-mounted dual AC5 and the PPC poke precise holes as well as they ever did, with the benefit of minimal exposure. Heavies... The timberwolf is great - yes. The CTF is no slouch though, neither is the orion. Or several of the others. Sure, a dragon is outclassed against a timberwolf, but a dragon is outclassed against a cataphract most of the time too. Assaults... The DWF is a monster, but the atlas is still a pretty good "anchor" for a team. It's six of one, half dozen of the other. To the average player, "Balance" means "nerf the things that kill me". People need to statwarrior less and play more, becoming a better pilot will do a lot more than adjustments to speed, heat, etc. will.

A huge part of this game is identifying and managing risk. LRM boats are much hated because there's little risk and high reward. Poptarts were hated for the same thing.

I own 120+ mechs myself including founders, phoenix, saber, masakari clan and a handful of hero's, I've read the books and played the games.
The clan mechs were designed with advantages, that's the way they have always been, that's what MW and Battletech are and I accept that.
The problem is, the imposed restrictions in the books and prior games are not currently being considered or are off the table so I was just proposing an option.
If you truly believe the IS mechs are on par with the Clan mech then I don't know what to say, other than I disagree.

[Johnny Reb]

Rusty Nails, on 23 September 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Players are never going to follow the book cannon in regards to clan philosophy, they will always tend toward the advantage, especially those that never read the books. These players especially will tend toward the Clan Mechs and Focus Fire for the simple fact the clan mechs are better and they want to win.

If this is the case and according to Russ 12 vs 10 is too much of a programming nightmare then change the tonnage or weight classes in the team make up. Instead of matching 3 of each weight class to each team, handicap (if you want to call it that) the clans to 4 lights, 4 mediums, 2 heavies, and 2 assaults.

I'm not a programmer so I'm not sure how difficult this would be but I'm certainly not looking forward to getting my ass handed to me while PGI figures it out. At least this would be an effort to try and even things up.

Even it that was the case, the MM after time might still give more of one class.