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Re: Clan Jj Changes And Why It Is A Good Thing


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#1 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 05:56 AM

(Duplicate of post on General, since it seems just as valid here as there)

Short TL;DR of the changes [redacted]:
  • All Clan mechs with jump jets in a given omni-pod will be locked into the maximum number of jump jets in those omni-pods.
  • The amount of lift per second will be increased to better reward those using 5 JJ over 4, and will scale better with the more (or less) jets you have.
  • The in air turn speed with jump jet equipped mechs will be faster the more jump jets your mech mounts.

What does this mean, and why am I not freaking out over this? (Warning, wall of text incoming)

It creates mech role diversification. This is something I have been clamoring on about since just after it became apparent that all IS light mechs can do the same job regardless of chassis. This game has suffered from gun-box syndrome for a long time now, whereby every mech can do almost every role its same class counterparts could do, with minor variations in hit boxes and available tonnage differentiating them from one another. This promotes min-max-itis, where one chassis will naturally be superior to the others given otherwise equal configuration flexibility, leading to the eventual (if not extinction) phasing out of certain mechs. Ironically, in tabletop, Clan mechs were the gunboxes, sized to fit BV or tonnage limitations, and it was not healthy back then either.

Examples of that include the energy AWS prior to the last quirk pass as the Stalker was the better energy boat, the DRG line of mechs (with possible exception of the Flame) because what of any worth did it bring that the Quickdraw did not bring better, HGN when the VTR took over, or the Jenner when the Firestarter was released.

Quite honestly, the game needs tighter restrictions on unique niches for specific mechs. This promotes mech diversification on the field, makes it so that any mech you take brings something unique to the fight, and as a result makes the game not only more tactical but healthier. A Raven was never supposed to be a long range scout/hunter killer but was made to fill a role that the KFX tends to do now as an ECM escort and support platform for heavier mechs, for example. You cannot turn a commercial airliner into a fighter jet no matter what you do to it, nor a rubber dingy into a yacht. Vehicles have limitations in their frames based on what jobs they were designed to do.

Where am I going with this?

By making you invest more tonnage and crit points into fixed omnipod jump jets, it creates specific jobs that certain mech chassis are simply better at. Now if you wanted an LRM carrier, the fixed jump jets in the Timber Wolf S really pushes you to use the Mad Dog - a mech that was purpose made to be a support platform. If you want a poptart or brawler, the Summoner not only has the superior hitboxes for armor rolling vs the Timber Wolf but already comes with the prerequisite number of Jump Jets. If you try to force the Timber Wolf, a mech that is supposed to be a jack of all trades anyways, to focus itself on doing the Summoner's job, well, you can, but you trade (IMO) inferior hit boxes and a larger target for a smidge more armor and a whopping 2 tons of additional pod space (well, and 1 freebie DHS). When the Hellbringer is released, we will be seeing a heavy support mech option, as well, that only that mech can fill the role of.

Point is, it creates role diversification. The game needs this.

Now, I know it sucks for pilots who have built chassis around the S side torso hardpoints sans jump jets. Believe me, I really do know. However, this is a time to take a step back and look at the positive ramifications this change might bring to the quality of life of the game or, at least, Clan tech. Might be one of those times to take one for the team, because at the end of the day it promotes a better game, with more meaningful options and decision making when it comes to choosing the mech you want to run.

Edited by Egomane, 30 September 2014 - 12:15 PM.
Language violation


#2 Kael Posavatz

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 06:52 AM

I am inclined to agree about intent, but execution in this case is less than optimal, and if not for the fact that PGI has been very open in the past when they made changes to discourage certain builds (PPC/Gauss sniper, pop-tart, etc), I would not be able to do that much because to a degree it looks exactly like that.

The Timberwolf...okay. If nothing else it has enough tonnage to play with that if you are running, say, an energy-brawler (requires S-variant Right Torso) which the Mad Dog cannot do (or at least not do well) finding a couple of spare tons is not too big of a sacrifice.

The ballistic/ecm/3x energy Kit Fox builds that many are starting to run are tonnage critical enough that having to fit in another half-ton is going to impose severe hardships for some builds.

If PGI wanted to go to a hardpoint type system where jump jets could only be placed in the pod they are associated with, I would be fine with it. As it is I can only look at this with and a deep sense of unease and a slightly queasy feeling.

Moving in a direction that makes Clan Mechs less customizable than IS Mechs (I am tempted to add "again" but some kind of rationalization of the OmniPod system was needed, but this? seriously?), and hitting us with it when community warfare is so close is a rap in the teeth. I realize that the majority of the discussion have looked at the Timberwolf, but this is going to affect the only ECM platform the clans will have until mid-November, possibly critically, and that second ECM unit is the Mist Lynx. Remind me again how common Commandos are, especially in the more competitive teams.

#3 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 06:57 AM

To the concerns that it eliminates or hampers builds: Good.

That said, sort of the twin uac2 kit fox, it is pretty negligible. Single s side torso, UAC5, 2 tons ammo, twin srm4, one ton ammo, ECM, ermlas. Solid mech all around. You want more guns, bring the Adder. That is the adders niche.

#4 StalaggtIKE

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 06:58 AM

View PostKael 17, on 30 September 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

I am inclined to agree about intent, but execution in this case is less than optimal, and if not for the fact that PGI has been very open in the past when they made changes to discourage certain builds (PPC/Gauss sniper, pop-tart, etc), I would not be able to do that much because to a degree it looks exactly like that.

The Timberwolf...okay. If nothing else it has enough tonnage to play with that if you are running, say, an energy-brawler (requires S-variant Right Torso) which the Mad Dog cannot do (or at least not do well) finding a couple of spare tons is not too big of a sacrifice.

The ballistic/ecm/3x energy Kit Fox builds that many are starting to run are tonnage critical enough that having to fit in another half-ton is going to impose severe hardships for some builds.

If PGI wanted to go to a hardpoint type system where jump jets could only be placed in the pod they are associated with, I would be fine with it. As it is I can only look at this with and a deep sense of unease and a slightly queasy feeling.

Moving in a direction that makes Clan Mechs less customizable than IS Mechs (I am tempted to add "again" but some kind of rationalization of the OmniPod system was needed, but this? seriously?), and hitting us with it when community warfare is so close is a rap in the teeth. I realize that the majority of the discussion have looked at the Timberwolf, but this is going to affect the only ECM platform the clans will have until mid-November, possibly critically, and that second ECM unit is the Mist Lynx. Remind me again how common Commandos are, especially in the more competitive teams.

I'm afraid I don't see how this affects the ECM Kitfox. The optimal build utilizes 2x ERMLasers and 1ERLLaser.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 30 September 2014 - 07:00 AM.


#5 LastKhan

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 09:34 AM

I for one am actually glad they went with it. The complaining i see is just silly concerning "builds".. At least with the Timby you can just mount one of the side torsos pods on another variant and bam theres your 2 jjs. You can still play with your precious builds, just got to build it a different way now.. Man, wish i can just swap a pod all willy nilly on the Summoner that doesnt have fixed jumps...

Another good thing as it brings the Timby down slightly. (still the best heavy in game.) and would give a decent reason to bring summoners more often along with the Mad Doge

#6 Nomex 99

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 10:08 AM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 30 September 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

All Clan mechs with jump jets in a given omni-pod will be locked into the maximum number of jump jets in those omni-pods.
What does this mean, and why am I not freaking out over this?


It means I won't buy any more Clan Mechs for $.

Edited by Nomex199, 30 September 2014 - 10:10 AM.


#7 Kael Posavatz

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 10:19 AM

Optimal builds differ between players.

I will admit right now that lights have never been my best weight class. The 1ERL / 2ERM never worked that well for me. But I do have two Kit Fox builds that I manage to do well in., and neither was anything like my Adder builds.

The first was an escort built around an LB-X-10 (with a slot now eaten by a jump jet, this weapon will no longer fit).

The second was ground-bound with a pair of machine guns. I still have the space to run that, but now I need to free up a ton from somewhere. That is not the problem as I used to run it with JJs, the problem is that my performance went up markedly after I took them off.

So with community warfare coming up my two ECM builds have become 'unlaunchable' and 'marginal for my play style' respectively.

And now that Russ is talking about removing the negative quirks in the Timberwolf-S side torso most of the reasons for going to a Mad Dog for the missile-support role are going to vanish behind the Timber Wolf's heavier armor and better side torso hit boxes. (This will most likely be followed by IS screaming about Clan Missile Spam and blanket penalties on Clan LRMs, but I may be feeling just a bit cynical at the moment).

Edited by Kael 17, 30 September 2014 - 10:25 AM.


#8 LastKhan

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 10:43 AM

View PostNomex199, on 30 September 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:


It means I won't buy any more Clan Mechs for $.


kay its like your money man do whatever you want with it.

Edited by lastkhan, 30 September 2014 - 10:44 AM.


#9 LastKhan

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 10:48 AM

To sum up the whining..

Posted Image

#10 Summon3r

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 11:13 AM

there is nothing dead about the t-wolf it will and likely always will be the best heavy in the game.... the possibility of removing JJ's from the Summoner is most welcome.

#11 LastKhan

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 11:16 AM

its an over exaggeration..

Edited by lastkhan, 30 September 2014 - 11:22 AM.


#12 Summon3r

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 11:18 AM

View Postlastkhan, on 30 September 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

its an over exaggerattion..


oh i fully understood your exageration :D .. im just saying it as well, the crying over the t-wolf S having locked JJ is ridiculous

#13 LastKhan

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 11:23 AM

Oh i would love to remove 2 jumps from the summoner but it is the way it is. The buff to its jumps is quite decent.

#14 CyclonerM

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 11:43 AM

View Postlastkhan, on 30 September 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

To sum up the whining..


Well, having both JJs in the same side torso is quite more risky. You can lose all your jumping capability in one shot ;)

Btw, am i the only one who wants the JJs on the Summoner to stay fixed? It would become a totally different 'Mech without them, and well, as a Summoner pilot i look forward to see the JJs buffs :D

#15 LastKhan

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 11:49 AM

View PostCyclonerM, on 30 September 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

[/size]
Well, having both JJs in the same side torso is quite more risky. You can lose all your jumping capability in one shot ;)

Btw, am i the only one who wants the JJs on the Summoner to stay fixed? It would become a totally different 'Mech without them, and well, as a Summoner pilot i look forward to see the JJs buffs :D


True. Gib me the summoner they got right PGI! http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thor_II

#16 CyclonerM

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 12:04 PM

View Postlastkhan, on 30 September 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:


True. Gib me the summoner they got right PGI! http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thor_II

Wait. Does it not have JJs? :o I do not believe the Jade Falcons would ever do that :huh:

Besides, i am not interested in a non-jumping Summoner. I could take a Thunderbolt instead (well, if it was not so much slower and less agile of course :P ).

Funny thing: i use on my Summoner a very similar configuration its Prime config.. just without one of the two UAC/s of course .

#17 Summon3r

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 12:11 PM

id love my Summoner to be what it is supposed to be a marvel of battlefield mobility but if its JJ's are not going to give it its true mobility then give me the 5 extras tons so i can add more weps/dhs so it isnt a laughing stock

lets hope they get its thrust increase correct

Edited by Summon3r, 30 September 2014 - 12:11 PM.


#18 Egomane

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 12:14 PM

Sorry, everyone! This thread appears to be a duplication: http://mwomercs.com/...s-a-good-thing/
We thank everyone who has constructively participated in the discussion until now.
Please feel free to redirect your attention and comments to the primary thread. Thanks for your understanding!

To the OP: Please note that crossposting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. Please refrain from doing so in the future.





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