184 replies to this topic

[King Arthur IV]

Khobai, on 25 September 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

Actually the reason why people talk about 235 is because you cant take two 100 ton mechs.

Because 100+100+20+20 = 240

235 means youre limited to a single 100 ton mech per drop.



Thats way too low.

240-260 is ideal for IS mechs while 200-240 is ideal for clan mechs.

And have a limit of two mechs per weight class. So no x4 heavy shenannigans.



Yeah but forcing people to play lights and mediums when they dont want to is also wrong.

185 allows for two assaults... thats not forcing you to only play lights and meds. you can even do 3 heavies with 185.

lowering the tonnage also reduces the difference between someone who boats the heaviest stuff and lighter stuff.

Edited by King Arthur IV, 25 September 2014 - 11:59 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

185 allows for two assaults... thats not forcing you to only play lights and meds. you can even do 3 heavies with 185.

no it doesnt. because you have to take 4 mechs. no combination of 4 mechs that includes 2 assaults adds upto 185.

the absolute minimum would be 80+80+20+20 or 200 tons.

Quote

Jesus Christ man. Have you been intentionally missing where I said in multiple posts that I want 1/1/1/1 implemented WITH weight limit? It will take account of that 15 tons.

If you have a drop weight limit theres no need to enforce 1/1/1/1 though. Thats the whole point. No one should be forced to play a weight class they dont want to play.

Especially when free players only get 4 mechbays.... and you need 3 of one mech to master that mech. Its totally ridiculous to impose 1/1/1/1 on them. Youre basically FORCING them to use trial mechs, which is horrible. Its completely counter-intuitive and will chase new players away from the game. If a free player wants to use their three hunchbacks or whatever in a game, who cares, why not let them? Its only heavies and assaults that need to be restricted.

There are so many reasons why 1/1/1/1 is a terrible idea. I dont even know why were still debating it. Even if you dont agree with drop weight limits, and thats fine, you still have to recognize how bad 1/1/1/1 is.

Edited by Khobai, 26 September 2014 - 12:07 AM.

[Ghogiel]

I sure hope the new mechs aren't bad because taking a KFX, SCR, TBR and DWF is basically the only thing people will be doing if it's 1/1/1/1. So right now I prefer 1/1/1/1 over tonnage limits for that reason. Or better yet neither of those and then I can take 3 TBRs and a DWF.

Khobai, on 25 September 2014 - 11:56 PM, said:

Youre basically FORCING them to use trial mechs, which is horrible.

At least the IS have (C) mechs for trials. Imagine people with stock novas or something :<

Edited by Ghogiel, 26 September 2014 - 12:07 AM.

[Lily from animove]

yes pls, I would prefer this as well, simply because it would give intentions to not use the max weighted max in each class.

Lets be honets, how will a competitive clan dropship look like?

Direwolf
Timberwolf (maybe a Loki because of ECM)
Stormcrow
Kit Fox

So a dropship should have:
tonnage restriction
4 mech slots with mechs being unqiue (not multiple times the same chassis allowed otherwise I stuff 3x timbewolf + mist lynx in it = 250 tons) But ok, dropship tonnage restriction could be balanced if some stuff gets too nasty.

In such a dropship I would stuff a Timberwolf or a Loki, A Mad Dog a stomrcrow and a Nova. Not the best choices, but a choice of mechs I like.


and wow, the ide to bring 10 locusts, LOL, so new meta will be 120 ecm locusts swarming in the CW. better prepare some bugspray.

Edited by Lily from animove, 26 September 2014 - 12:20 AM.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 25 September 2014 - 11:56 PM, said:

Especially when free players only get 4 mechbays.... and you need 3 of one mech to master that mech. Its totally ridiculous to impose 1/1/1/1 on them. Youre basically FORCING them to use trial mechs, which is horrible. Its completely counter-intuitive and will chase new players away from the game. If a free player wants to use their three hunchbacks or whatever in a game, who cares, why not let them? Its only heavies and assaults that need to be restricted.

Assuming you are correct that 1/1/1/1 is forcing the 4 mech bay free players to use different mechs they do not like.

What about free players who has 4 Assaults in those 4 mech bays, in case of weight restriction? They will be gated due to weight restriction and play mechs that they do not want, all the same.

Clearly there should be some other solution, or trial mechs will become natural part of the system.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 September 2014 - 12:34 AM.

[King Arthur IV]

Khobai, on 25 September 2014 - 11:56 PM, said:

no it doesnt. because you have to take 4 mechs. no combination of 4 mechs that includes 2 assaults adds upto 185.

ahh you might want to reread what op wrote.

"So for example 4 mechs maximum (with a chance to bring less than 4 if that is what you chose)"

tonnage and 4 mech maximum limit. you are not obliged to bring 4 if you don't want.

185 ton allows for a lot of choice. 100+85 that's direwolf and stalker right there. last i checked those are both assaults.

Edited by King Arthur IV, 26 September 2014 - 12:38 AM.

[Rusty Nails]

Mystere, on 25 September 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

FYI, Russ has communicated in another thread that the matchmaker in CW will not be the same as what we have now. It will not use Elo and the 3/3/3/3 scheme.

That is true, he also said in the town hall meeting that the mission will be limited to certain mechs available on that particular world. So in fact the mission parameters may limit the drop deck by limiting the chassis and number of each.
There maybe missions that are fast attacks and limited to lights and mediums or any number of combinations.
Actually now that you say that, I'm thinking the missions will be much more restrictive than just the 3/3/3/3 or tonnage.

[EgoSlayer]

Any solution that allows the players to take more or less than a set number of Mechs is doomed to failure. MWO is a numbers game, the more numbers in your force the more likely you are going win and it snowballs with attrition. We should all know this by heart with the current system of no respawns - the team with more people wins. And CW is no different because killing all the enemy is still a victory condition.
If you let one force into the game with 5 times the number of mechs (e.g. ~120 Locust vs 24DWs) they are going to win every time. Comp teams will be rolling out in what ever ends up being the best total number of mechs of X weight. There won't be any variety, and they will be steamrolling any teams that don't match their deck.

If there is going to be a weight limit, there still has to be a fixed number of units that you *must* field. Give bonuses for being under tonned, but you still gotta bring 4.

EDIT: Math.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 26 September 2014 - 02:56 AM.

[Tombstoner]

EgoSlayer, on 26 September 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:

Any solution that allows the players to take more or less than a set number of Mechs is doomed to failure. MWO is a numbers game, the more numbers in your force the more likely you are going win and it snowballs with attrition. We should all know this by heart with the current system of no respawns - the team with more people wins. And CW is no different because killing all the enemy is still a victory condition.
If you let one force into the game with 10 times the number of mechs (e.g. ~120 Locust vs 24DWs) they are going to win every time. Comp teams will be rolling out in what ever ends up being the best total number of mechs of X weight. There won't be any variety, and they will be steamrolling any teams that don't match their deck.

If there is going to be a weight limit, there still has to be a fixed number of units that you *must* field. Give bonuses for being under tonned, but you still gotta bring 4.

What will be worse is designated spotters with 10 locusts feeding the LRM boats. once an LRM boat is out of ammo it suicides and rearms.

Personally i think it should be team tonnage only, with no individual mech restrictions and a team max of 36 mechs. this is due to the limited number of mech bays in an over lord drop ship. 12x3 = 36. i think this allows for the maximum flexibility that a team can make plans around.

[Lily from animove]

Tombstoner, on 26 September 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:

What will be worse is designated spotters with 10 locusts feeding the LRM boats. once an LRM boat is out of ammo it suicides and rearms.

Personally i think it should be team tonnage only, with no individual mech restrictions and a team max of 36 mechs. this is due to the limited number of mech bays in an over lord drop ship. 12x3 = 36. i think this allows for the maximum flexibility that a team can make plans around.

As far As I did understand that, russ said we will have 4 mechs in our dropship and we will respawn everytime we die in one of those 4 to choose of until all 4 are dead. So basically everyone will use the biggets mechs available in each class. Somehow there must be given a restriction/motivation to use lower tonnage mechs. Except from lights where speed matters I hardly see a reason why people should not bring the big boys, especially as clanner where the bigger = better.

Edited by Lily from animove, 26 September 2014 - 03:48 AM.

[Asmudius Heng]

+1 for 4 mechs of different classes but with a tonnage limit .... however the problem might arise that people do not have the right mechs to fit such a limit even with champion mechs to fill.

Mind you, i think that if there was better role warfare and balance that some of the lower end of each weight class might actually have a place anyway ...

[oneproduct]

As already pointed out by someone else, there absolutely needs to be a maximum (4 or whatever) number of mechs that a person can take, so you can't do it purely on tonnage. There are tons of players who can use a single jenner or firestarter to kill multiple mechs above their weight. Those players could simply stuff their dropship full with around 7 or 8 light mechs if there wasn't a limit on how many mechs you could bring.

If you weren't forced to bring 1/1/1/1 we already know what the answer would be from our current weight class percentages in the queue; very few people would bring light mechs. This changes the balance of the game. Generally speaking, outside of light mechs, the heavier of two mechs is favored to win in a fight. I.e. a victor can generally do the same thing a shadowhawk can do but better, and please, no anecdotal evidence about that one time your medium mech killed three assault mechs.

Medium mechs need light mechs to be their prey. Even here light mechs stand a good chance vs medium mechs, but at least medium mechs are suitable for fighting lights because of how prominent missile slots (i.e. streaks) are on medium mechs and how they're agile enough to keep up with them compared to a dire wolf who's in trouble if caught alone by a light mech.

Light mechs benefit from having enemy light mechs to chase off from their teammates in order to reach their full potential.

If you don't use 1/1/1/1 you'll just see a game full of mostly heavies and assaults, which is not what MW is about. Even if you limit someone to two of each weight class then you'll likely just see twice as many heavies and assaults compared to mediums and lights. Having a mix of all the weight classes is important for the food chain and the general feel of the game.

1/1/1/1 with tonnage limits is the way to go. If you don't like a certain weight class it's your problem. Not everyone can be the star center on a team, someone has to play goalie, like it or not.

Edited by oneproduct, 26 September 2014 - 04:30 AM.

[Dracol]

1/1/1/1 favors no one except those who have skills in all weight classes.

A tonnage limit would favor those whose preferred mech can be taken 4 times. Dedicated light pilots would get the short end of the stick since they would be leaving available tonnage behind.

A tonnage limit with class restrictions would favor those who has specialized in two mechs that can fit in the tonnage limit.

1/1/1/1 will be disliked the most but it is the fairest.

[Dirgez]

A 200 (or 215) ton limit with a mandatory 1/1/1/1 drop loadout is the best way to go. Forces players to think about what they need to bring and not what is the best to bring. I also see this as a way to more easily balance matches which means less time waiting to find a match...

El Bandito, on 26 September 2014 - 12:31 AM, said:

Assuming you are correct that 1/1/1/1 is forcing the 4 mech bay free players to use different mechs they do not like.

What about free players who has 4 Assaults in those 4 mech bays, in case of weight restriction? They will be gated due to weight restriction and play mechs that they do not want, all the same.

Clearly there should be some other solution, or trial mechs will become natural part of the system.

Free players should get no sympathy in this regard. If they are not willing to spend 3 or 4 dollars to play an advanced mode then they should not expect to be given an easy route to an advanced feature of the game.

Edited by WM Dirges, 26 September 2014 - 05:10 AM.

[Jonny Taco]

Terciel1976, on 25 September 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

So at 250, I'd bring three TBRs and a Mist Lynx that I would use last if I had to. That's better how?

This would certainly be an issue within an open weight system however I think a compromise can be met. Instead of just simply a weight limit, why not also introduce a cap of two to the number of one class you can take. With a drop limit of 200 tons that would be 2x timber wolves and 2x koshis.

[Karamarka]

Weight sounds better if they can work it out nicely

[Fubbit]

Tonnage limits seem better to me also.

A maximum of 200 tons and 4 mechs. ??

Heavy/Assault pilots can bring less mechs if they want.

Buffs Medium/Light usefulness logistically. (Which actually fits lore kinda sorta, and just seems fair.)

[Arctourus]

I'm a little lost here....is the dropship mode the next step for CW or something? What's the proposed arrival date of that anyway?

[Brody319]

Either we are going 1/1/1/1 or a weight limit. Having both is pointless. It will put people who like heavier mechs into weak under tonnage mechs. I'd rather run a stripped down locus with only an engine and no armor, if it means I get to run my Dire wolf and Timber wolf. at least at 1/1/1/1 I won't feel as restricted. I would be happy to run a light that can actually do something rather than just a lemming mech. If we put it at just a weight limit, true its more friendly to newer players who don't have a lot of mechs, but will result in people bringing more of their favorite mechs. i.e. multiple timber wolves and dire wolves. At 225 tons, or more for Clans. I can bring 3 timber wolves.

1/1/1/1 Is a necessary evil if you want people to play all the mechs.
Some of my suggestions might be helpful. Rather than just trials, how about once a week, for 3 days, you can rent any 3 mechs. So if I want, I can rent 3 Atlases and try them all out. No costs so that way new players can not only use the trials, but figure out what mechs they wanted via renting. They would also be allowed to customize the mechs, and when the trial was up, any additions would go straight into the person's backpack so when they bought the mech they could easily just reequip them.

Or you could just change the trials, 1 clan mech and 1 IS mech in each weight class. Then new players can play both IS's and clans. (Remove the nova, its garbage! like any other medium clan, just not that one!)

[Sprouticus]

So the majority of folks think:


1) Tonnage >>>>>>>1/1/1/1
2) 4 mechs or less is good. (maybe 4 required, still up for debate)

This works for me! One note though, you might have to allow folks to choose the same mech multiple times. I have no problem with this

Here is another thought:

Make the tonnage allowed variable. For instance, for some drops do 175, for others 200, for others 235. Once in a while do a 250 or even 275.