184 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Brody319, on 26 September 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

Either we are going 1/1/1/1 or a weight limit. Having both is pointless. It will put people who like heavier mechs into weak under tonnage mechs. I'd rather run a stripped down locus with only an engine and no armor, if it means I get to run my Dire wolf and Timber wolf. at least at 1/1/1/1 I won't feel as restricted. I would be happy to run a light that can actually do something rather than just a lemming mech. If we put it at just a weight limit, true its more friendly to newer players who don't have a lot of mechs, but will result in people bringing more of their favorite mechs. i.e. multiple timber wolves and dire wolves. At 225 tons, or more for Clans. I can bring 3 timber wolves.

1/1/1/1 Is a necessary evil if you want people to play all the mechs.
Some of my suggestions might be helpful. Rather than just trials, how about once a week, for 3 days, you can rent any 3 mechs. So if I want, I can rent 3 Atlases and try them all out. No costs so that way new players can not only use the trials, but figure out what mechs they wanted via renting. They would also be allowed to customize the mechs, and when the trial was up, any additions would go straight into the person's backpack so when they bought the mech they could easily just reequip them.

Or you could just change the trials, 1 clan mech and 1 IS mech in each weight class. Then new players can play both IS's and clans. (Remove the nova, its garbage! like any other medium clan, just not that one!)

At leats nova prime is a not so suited trial nova. The other variants would have been a bit better by providing a not so horribly self dangerous loadout.

Sprouticus, on 26 September 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

So the majority of folks think:


1) Tonnage >>>>>>>1/1/1/1
2) 4 mechs or less is good. (maybe 4 required, still up for debate)

This works for me! One note though, you might have to allow folks to choose the same mech multiple times. I have no problem with this

Here is another thought:

Make the tonnage allowed variable. For instance, for some drops do 175, for others 200, for others 235. Once in a while do a 250 or even 275.

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT: clan vs IS balance, IS could get 20t advantage and so we can create a small counterbalance by that. or any other delta which may balance stuff.

Edited by Lily from animove, 26 September 2014 - 06:55 AM.

[Kushko]

Sprouticus, on 26 September 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

So the majority of folks think:


1) Tonnage >>>>>>>1/1/1/1
2) 4 mechs or less is good. (maybe 4 required, still up for debate)

This works for me! One note though, you might have to allow folks to choose the same mech multiple times. I have no problem with this

Here is another thought:

Make the tonnage allowed variable. For instance, for some drops do 175, for others 200, for others 235. Once in a while do a 250 or even 275.

Different tonnage limits for different planets/engagements would be kind of cool. Make you adapt and work with what you get.

I dont see them letting you bring more copys of the 1 mech you own though (unless you actually own more copys of it ), and it would kind of defeat the purpose of it working hand in hand with the buy 3 to master 1 system.

[Destoroyah]

As mentioned earlier I think a compromise using the 1/1/1/1 and tonnage limit is the best course as it allows match simplicity and set-up cause everyone is bringing a balanced deck and the tonnage limit helps promote the weaker chassis into gameplay. Your still be able to bring 2 mechs of your personal choice be it a light/cicada, Timber/SCrow, or Dire/timber, but your have to bring along also mechs you aren't so comfortable with. The 4 mechs aren't intended to all be used in a match and are only there as back-ups. So you better use your preferred mechs well or you might be having to use the less desirable ones. Also almost everyone is in the same boat as everyone prefers to play a specific style of mech and no-one gets special treatment whether they be a light-expert/medium-expert/heavy-expert/ or assault expert.

[Hobo Dan]

Brody319, on 26 September 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

It will put people who like heavier mechs into weak under tonnage mechs. I'd rather run a stripped down locus with only an engine and no armor, if it means I get to run my Dire wolf and Timber wolf.

A Locust is 20 tons, even if you only put 15 tons of stuff on it, for the purposes of this exercise it is counted as 20 tons.

Edited by Hobo Dan, 26 September 2014 - 07:16 AM.

[Brody319]

Hobo Dan, on 26 September 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

A Locust is 20 tons, even if you only put 15 tons of stuff on it, for the purposes of this exercise it is counted as 20 tons.

Well if we are only counting the max tonnage of any mech then a weight limit punishes heavier mechs for no real reason. Light players and medium players do get a bonus, but you force heavy and assault players to play mechs they don't want too. If we are being fair, 1/1/1/1 drops are fair, at least everyone has to deal with it, rather than only heavies and assault players having to deal with it.

[KraftySOT]

Hobo Dan, on 25 September 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

I’m serious. Make each individual’s drop ship have a max carrying capacity of 200 tons. Whatever you can fit in that 200 tons is what you bring to battle (be it two Direwolves or 10 Locusts). When your first mech is destroyed, re-drop in your next mech, repeat.

Will some people always bring two 100 ton assaults? Sure, but they are out of the match after both are wrecked. This will encourage off tonnage mech usage because no one wants to leave tonnage on the table, so if you have 20 to 45 tons left over after picking your favorite heavy or assault, why not grab a Vindicator, BJ, Commando, or Locust? Or maybe you look at the difference between a 65 ton mech and a 60 ton mech and realize dropping that extra 5 tones will let you bring a Firestarter or Jenner that could be really powerful in the late game when drop ships are depleted and armor is sheared off.

And if you want to look at it from a business standpoint, this means people will need more mech chassis if they choose to go with lower tonnages and more available replacements. C-Bill sink and potentially Mechbay selling point. Obviously you could always round out your drop ship with trials but ewwww…

This sounds awesome, until people realize 12 people bringing 10 locusts, wins every time.

As long as I can choose what to spawn when....im cool with it. Sounds like fun, and a reason to have more mechs.

I just dont want to pick my Banshee, then K2, then Hunchie, then Raven...then be forced into that order in the drop. If I see my team dropping all assaults first, I want to drop my Banshee, if I see them want a light I want to be able to fill that role if I want to.

Also after ive died once and im coming back to respawn, I want to be able to pick what mech of my remaining 3 I want to drop.

I assume theyve thought of this.

[Screech]

KraftySOT, on 26 September 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

This sounds awesome, until people realize 12 people bringing 10 locusts, wins every time

WHUT?

I am not sure how you come to this conclusion. I mean it might happen depending on the skill levels involved but to play it off as a certainty seems odd to say the least. How will the 12 man Locust team win if the other team recognizes the strategy and turtle up. How many kills are the locust going to get against another 12 man blob that out tons likely by 200-300 tons minimum. If it is lucky it might peel a kill every wave but more likely then not it would be less. And in the end probably loose a war of attrition.

Mind you this is all speculation as we really don't know. But it sounds vastly more interesting then knowing for certain that the other team will have 48 mechs: 12 assaults, 12 heavies. 12 mediums, 12 lights. Over and over and over and over......

[Sprouticus]

Screech, on 26 September 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

WHUT?

I am not sure how you come to this conclusion. I mean it might happen depending on the skill levels involved but to play it off as a certainty seems odd to say the least. How will the 12 man Locust team win if the other team recognizes the strategy and turtle up. How many kills are the locust going to get against another 12 man blob that out tons likely by 200-300 tons minimum. If it is lucky it might peel a kill every wave but more likely then not it would be less. And in the end probably loose a war of attrition.

Mind you this is all speculation as we really don't know. But it sounds vastly more interesting then knowing for certain that the other team will have 48 mechs: 12 assaults, 12 heavies. 12 mediums, 12 lights. Over and over and over and over......

change it to 7 firestarters and you may start to gleen his point. numbers count in MWO. And allowing that many mechs would mean wolfpacks of lights would be able to overwhelm pretty much any mech with sheer numbers.

[Lily from animove]

Screech, on 26 September 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

WHUT?

I am not sure how you come to this conclusion. I mean it might happen depending on the skill levels involved but to play it off as a certainty seems odd to say the least. How will the 12 man Locust team win if the other team recognizes the strategy and turtle up. How many kills are the locust going to get against another 12 man blob that out tons likely by 200-300 tons minimum. If it is lucky it might peel a kill every wave but more likely then not it would be less. And in the end probably loose a war of attrition.

Mind you this is all speculation as we really don't know. But it sounds vastly more interesting then knowing for certain that the other team will have 48 mechs: 12 assaults, 12 heavies. 12 mediums, 12 lights. Over and over and over and over......

because locusts dodge damage by speed They just swarm in shoot att any bakc they see, reterats and redo. Most of your mechs will be too slow to know where they will come from and so won't ebven be able toreact fast enough to counter them.

[KraftySOT]

Screech, on 26 September 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

WHUT?

I am not sure how you come to this conclusion. I mean it might happen depending on the skill levels involved but to play it off as a certainty seems odd to say the least. How will the 12 man Locust team win if the other team recognizes the strategy and turtle up. How many kills are the locust going to get against another 12 man blob that out tons likely by 200-300 tons minimum. If it is lucky it might peel a kill every wave but more likely then not it would be less. And in the end probably loose a war of attrition.

Mind you this is all speculation as we really don't know. But it sounds vastly more interesting then knowing for certain that the other team will have 48 mechs: 12 assaults, 12 heavies. 12 mediums, 12 lights. Over and over and over and over......

Hitreg.

[Sprouticus]

Brody319, on 26 September 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

Well if we are only counting the max tonnage of any mech then a weight limit punishes heavier mechs for no real reason. Light players and medium players do get a bonus, but you force heavy and assault players to play mechs they don't want too. If we are being fair, 1/1/1/1 drops are fair, at least everyone has to deal with it, rather than only heavies and assault players having to deal with it.

At this point there is very little tactical reason to take mediums and only slightly more to take lights for these kinds of drops. Heavies (TW in particular) are fast enough and tough enough to do the job most of the time. Unless the CW attack/defend map really rewards lights and mediums, people will always go for the bigger mech

1/1/1/1 does solve that issue, but it is a hammer when you need a feather IMO and it encourages folks to use the 'best mech in the class'. For the clans it will be kitfox/SCrow/TW/DW. For the IS it will be slightly more varied, but only slightly. 1-2 chassis per weight class, all at the top of the weight class or 5 tons less (FS/Raven/SHawk/Griffin, etc)

[KraftySOT]

Lily from animove, on 26 September 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

because locusts dodge damage by speed They just swarm in shoot att any bakc they see, reterats and redo. Most of your mechs will be too slow to know where they will come from and so won't ebven be able toreact fast enough to counter them.

This.

One by one youll be swarmed, unless you also took lights.

It doesnt have to be the locust, its whatever the best light is. Remains to be seen since no ones played CW yet. Maybe its all Jenners. But the point is...the people who bought assaults will be lulzed.

[TexAce]

I like the idea, but please, not 250. Too much abuse. 3 Heavies plus backup is just too much on the heavy side.

200 tons is perfect. Still 3 Heavies, but thats all you can get and its not even the heaviest heavies.

And yeah, unlimited mech numbers, dont stick with 4.

Brings much more variety to the match and makes sense with the "you need 3 mechs to master" rubbish.

Edited by TexAss, 26 September 2014 - 08:07 AM.

[KraftySOT]

And you think its bad now, with 4 lights...with 12?

I mean I know they arent checking positions any faster as far as the netcode goes just because its a light...but youd never hit anything.

[dJellyfish]

230 Ton max (perhaps a 160 ton min) and 4 mechs min/max. Prevents two 100 ton assaults and encourages variety. If PGI is going to allow 12 Assault teams in the first wave (which they've said they are), the only balance which really matters is overall tonnage in the match.

[Screech]

Not sure why everyone is so afraid about light wolf packs. Considering they will be unable to outnumber their enemies it does seem to fall flat. If lights are so feared, why do we force people into playing them over assaults and heavies? Why have we had to live with years of complaining about tonnage imbalances when the light mechs are somehow unstoppable if there are 12 of them at once.

I will admit removing the mech cap on drops in CW would necessitate the need to address consumables as that could be abused.

[oneproduct]

Screech, on 26 September 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

Not sure why everyone is so afraid about light wolf packs. Considering they will be unable to outnumber their enemies it does seem to fall flat. If lights are so feared, why do we force people into playing them over assaults and heavies? Why have we had to live with years of complaining about tonnage imbalances when the light mechs are somehow unstoppable if there are 12 of them at once.

I will admit removing the mech cap on drops in CW would necessitate the need to address consumables as that could be abused.

Right now if you have three light mechs who find a heavy/assault mech that's on his own out of position they eat him alive.

If the wolf pack can be as large as 12 mechs, they will devour that mech in seconds plus the two or three mechs who break off to try to save him.

The problem is that heavy/assault mechs have a harder time sticking together because they are slow but the second one of them gets out of position 12 light mechs can prey upon him because they have the speed to react to his mistake.

[Hospy]

Two teams, twelve players each team, each player with ten locusts each with artillery.

The greatest game of dodgeball ever.

[Mawai]

I like the 1/1/1/1 idea because it is fair to everyone.

Any tonnage limit lets people game the system.

1) fixed tonnage, fixed number of mechs

- take maximum firepower and survivability
- 250 tons as in the OP ... 2 DW + medium, 3 x victor, 3 x timberwolf ... maximum tonnage and firepower ... way too much room for abuse and no room for folks to take other mechs ... folks will just take 2, 3 or 4 of the most heavily armed, armored and overpowered mechs available.
- if players were forced to fill these slots that would still allow for 2 xDW + 2x commando and hope then never need the lights

2) Fixed tonnage (200 tons in the original suggestion) ... unlimited number of mechs

- as much as this idea appeals from a realism point of view ... it is even more broken unfortunately. Mech power does not scale linearly with tonnage ... which is better 2x DW or 5 x jenner + commando? or 6 x spider + locust? I know which I would take.

One system encourages the use of only the most overpowered mechs of one class ... since it maximizes the power available ... the other approach encourages swarms of light mechs since ton for ton they are more effective than their heavier counterparts.

1/1/1/1 has its own issues ... it will encourage taking the best mech in each class.


One option might be 1/1/1/1 with a tonnage limit as well ... say 240 ... in order to take the heaviest mech in each class you require 35+55+75+100 = 265 tons. By limiting the total to 240 tons this means that only 2 classes of mechs can have maximum tonnage at the same time ... the other two classes will have to be a total of 25 tons lighter. The problem with this approach is that not all folks have a mech of each class and will have to rely on trial mech availability. On the other hand, if a full range of trial mechs was available for each class then any combination should be possible.

Using something like this then everyone will be equally constrained and you will see a wider range of tonnage fielded since folks will make different trade offs in terms of the mechs they want to use.

P.S. Of course folks might also complain because they might not be able use all of their favourite power builds at the same time.

Edited by Mawai, 26 September 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[Brody319]

Sprouticus, on 26 September 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

At this point there is very little tactical reason to take mediums and only slightly more to take lights for these kinds of drops. Heavies (TW in particular) are fast enough and tough enough to do the job most of the time. Unless the CW attack/defend map really rewards lights and mediums, people will always go for the bigger mech

1/1/1/1 does solve that issue, but it is a hammer when you need a feather IMO and it encourages folks to use the 'best mech in the class'. For the clans it will be kitfox/SCrow/TW/DW. For the IS it will be slightly more varied, but only slightly. 1-2 chassis per weight class, all at the top of the weight class or 5 tons less (FS/Raven/SHawk/Griffin, etc)

I'm not saying its perfect. But its fair to heavy players. Its just as jarring for me a heavy player to have to switch to a light, as it is for a light to switch to a heavy. I think they should start at 1/1/1/1 and see how it goes. If they start with the tonnage limit people will be upset and claim balance issues when they have to kill 3 timber wolves because all they brought were Spiders.