38 replies to this topic

[Steel Claws]

I think repair and rearm should be brought back into the game. It will help reduce al the boated LRMs and ballistics. Make them pay for all that ammo they burn through.

[FupDup]

Boated Lurms aren't even OP most of the time (a few exclusions exist, i.e. Narc Beacon on Caustic Valley) and most boated ballistics have weaknesses as well.

All you'd really accomplish is making everybody spam the living crap out of lasers. According to some, such as the infamous House of Lords™, laser vomit (Clans particularly) is already practically the meta as it is. The PPC nerf removed the major competition that lasers had, and since ballistics were almost always used in conjunction with PPCs they got indirectly affected (negatively) as well.


As for repairs, those have issues in that they discourage players from being aggressive. People would want to sit in the back and try to avoid getting shot as much as possible, and this would cause them to lose. The way you win MWO is by pushing, being aggressive, and having balls in general. People shouldn't be punished for tanking damage. Spreading damage across your mech (and across your whole team) is how you win the game -- not by cowering in a corner to avoid receiving damage at all costs. The number of players who run off at the end of the match and shutdown instead of trying to snag a win would also increase.

---

And there are even more reasons out there against RnR.

You'd unintentionally shift the effectiveness of certain chassis depending on what they equip. As an example, Stalkers pretty much never use XL engines, and very often can even skip Endo Steel. They would be much cheaper to maintain than many other assault mechs, particularly Victors (which are lighter than Stalkers) which virtually always run XL. Lights would be indirectly nerfed because the majority of them use FF whereas very few non-light mechs use FF in turn; all serious light players use XL at all times, which also increases light mech costs. People in general who use the few sub-par builds capable of FF (outside of the light class) would be penalized for not optimizing.

And you'd make it so the players who could use Premium Time and/or Hero Mechs would consistently field superior mechs to people with less space cash. In current play, once you buy a mech and its upgrades you're all set and good to go. The premium player gets a head start, but the freebie player catches up later and it's all good from that point on. But with RnR, there is no "catch up" point, because the expenditures never stop. The finish line keeps moving.

And in general, you'd penalize players for trying to use unconventional builds which might not end up being top tier. If a build turned out to not be great, then a player would be at a deficit for their decision to not conform. It would further encourage players to find one "good" build that is tried-and-true and is known to work, and not try to experiment with others.

Edited by FupDup, 25 September 2014 - 11:03 PM.

[Zolaz]

Repair and Rearm ... because this is suppose to be a mech sim.

[Hastur Azargo]

If R&R comes back I'll consider quitting. I stopped playing WT because of 30-40k repair bills which make it very easy to go negative (that, and ludicrously bad battle ratings), even if you have premium time. MWO at least lets me play with whatever mech I feel like taking out, even though c-bill grind makes acquiring modules a long and tedious affair, not to mention it took me over a year to collect all the engines I use.

I don't think MWO, or any game for that matter, needs chores and pointless money-sinks.

[Mothykins]

Pretty much been gone over repeatedly. The game already has a massive grind (on average, with a hero Mech, 20 hours to afford a chassis) And all you're doing is giving players how can afford to pay the winning ticket; they can afford to just buy Premium and Heros and even, at this point, straight up buy Cbills.

The Average players will suffer, and the game will become 100% Pay to Win.


On top of that, You'll bring back "Commando with smallest engine and Single Small Laser" Style play, where they just suicide at match start to farm cbills en mass.


Trust me, R&R is dead right now for a reason.

Edited by Cavale, 25 September 2014 - 11:19 PM.

[Reno Blade]

IF R&R comes back to CW only, you could still "ignore" most of the cost, if you play enough in the public queue.

I had posted here:
http://mwomercs.com/...and-cw-effects/
about a possible inclusion of R&R in a dropship/invasion mode gameplay for CW.
The idea was to give each contract for invading/defending planets a bonus to R&R with a max repair per round.
And if your mech had less % health of armor/ammo/structure after one round of repairs (between each battle), you could decide to drop with this damaged mech, or another one in your dropship.

But as it stands now, it wouldn't fit without changes.

[DarthPeanut]

R&R would be bad to bring back IMO.

-New players coming into the game who will undoubtedly take a number of losses would quickly get discouraged by the highly diminished returns per match. It would be a rough start that would turn a lot of new players away.

-It would promote more camping and turtled up play in general as people try to minimize their R&R costs. Something that I think is bad for the game and I think most people agree.

-It would kill cbill spending as people sit on their funds in preparation for the inevitable run of bad games we all have every so often. Meaning people would not be running anything but the select number of 'choice' mechs/ loadouts. Who would want to drop in a fun build and waste cbills.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 26 September 2014 - 05:10 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Steel Claws, on 25 September 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

I think repair and rearm should be brought back into the game. It will help reduce al the boated LRMs and ballistics. Make them pay for all that ammo they burn through.

I support this. Many don't, the wheels go round and round.

R&R did not stop me from spamming LRM40s with 11 tons of ammo though.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 26 September 2014 - 05:07 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Reno Blade, on 25 September 2014 - 11:33 PM, said:

*SNIP*

Reno's the Red Head

[Bishop Steiner]

Azargo, on 25 September 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

If R&R comes back I'll consider quitting. I stopped playing WT because of 30-40k repair bills which make it very easy to go negative (that, and ludicrously bad battle ratings), even if you have premium time. MWO at least lets me play with whatever mech I feel like taking out, even though c-bill grind makes acquiring modules a long and tedious affair, not to mention it took me over a year to collect all the engines I use.

I don't think MWO, or any game for that matter, needs chores and pointless money-sinks.

One reason rewards were nerfed to such a grind was the removal of RnR.

Smartly played and implemented RnR, one actually could easily come out ahead. The real reason the cry went out against RnR was twofold: 1) Because PGI left an easy exploit even a moron could see would be abused, and 2) Because certain "1337s" didn't like the risk entailed if they tried to run their max tech, uber minmax builds and lost or got killed. How dare Timmy running a STD Engine Centurion come out of the match with more money than Johnny with his XL Engined, Arty/LRMboat!!!!!

I feel for CW, RnR is essential. For Public Queue, a bad idea. But the RnR would need to be expolit free, and set so that Clans get nailed harder, to compensate for their Maxi-tech, or IS mechs trying to make a buck get left way behind.

It's funny though, for being such a horrible grind mechanic, that those who simply played smart, usually had nearly 1 billion cbills between wipes. If you didn't run XLs and use huge quantities of Artemis LRMs, you did just fine with RnR.

With the Mechanic is, it would still leave plenty of room for Maxxed Mechs, but one would have to decide, per contract, if the risk was worth the reward.


Regardless, it's rather moot, as I doubt we will ever see it again. Too many want this to be a brainless, slow mo version of CoD for things like a real RnR and economy to ever happen.

Joseph Mallan, on 26 September 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

Reno's the Red Head

worries me he runs around with your pic on his siggy then, Joe. You guys sweet?

[DarthPeanut]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 September 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

I support this. Many don't, the wheels go round and round.

R&R did not stop me from spamming LRM40s with 11 tons of ammo though.

Conversely it could do the very opposite of reducing LRM spam. Ammo is cheap compared to repairing.

I would expect to see drops of ERLL lights spotting, medium/ heavies going Gauss/ ERLL/ PPC sniper, and assault LRM boats. The majority of the team turtle up in the usual map positions to poke back and forth for 15 minutes.

ETA: People complain now about the 'cbill sink' on here. I can only imagine the forum rage when people lose cbills to the never never land of R&R for a run of bad matches they have.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 26 September 2014 - 05:22 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

DarthPeanut, on 26 September 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

Conversely it could do the very opposite of reducing LRM spam. Ammo is cheap compared to repairing.

I would expect to see drops of ERLL lights spotting, medium/ heavies going Gauss/ ERLL sniper, and assault LRM boats. The majority of the team turtle up in the usual map positions to poke back and forth for 15 minutes.

That would only be true if they don't revert. Also we don't KNOW what the repair/re-arm costs would be. In CB; cost of LRMs was reasonable, though a LRM 80 boat used a LOT of ammo. One with Arty, even if it lived and won, often LOST money from ammo costs.

[DarthPeanut]

Ok so then it becomes an attrition battle where we all lay back with ERLL and PPC to poke at each other all day... yawn. It just shifts the game play to another style that people will get frustrated with when everyone camps a corner to play sniper. Meanwhile new players have to grind it out all the more to get started.

Meh. Far to complex a solution that I do not think could be implemented effectively. It would be easily exploited by some and just drive others out of the game.

For reference I am not an LRM person and cannot tell you the last time I shot one. I have played 2 different aggressive LRM medium builds in the past after the LRM change to see what it was all about, but they are not for me anymore. Cannot stand them at present and I much prefer/ use direct fire weapons. So I am not a fan of LRM and am not looking to speak up for them. I just think R&R will create more problems than solutions to a perceived problem in one weapons system.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 26 September 2014 - 05:39 AM.

[Reno Blade]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 September 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

Reno's the Red Head

HA! Not really on topic.

I know that Reno is the redhead and Rude the bald guy.
Even though my character's first name is Reno and my youth was influenced by FF7, my Name was not because of one of these characters.
I'm no longer a red-head and instead shave my head.

But even with these similarities, when I created my new Signatur, I found the image of Rude which looks pretty much like me nowadays, so I used this image.

Now back to topic.
In my link I had used a system of contract variables (max armor/ammo/structure repair per round) and loyalty + conquered planets to increase the gains by beeing good at CW.
Ofc, there needs to be a lower limit for the losing faction to not go negative.
And the question if trials need repair too is still open.

[Darwins Dog]

I agree with PGI's reasoning for removing RnR. It didn't add anything to the game. People just left auto-repair on and kept playing. There was not a choice involved of whether or not to repair something. There was some need to choose the right mech for the battle, but for the most part it didn't slow people down.

I do have to admit that part of the problem (a big part) was the 75% free ammo. RnR didn't slow the ALRM80 stalkers because they got 75% of their ammo refilled for free.

I've been replaying MW2:Mercs (still as much fun as when I was 15) and a few tings occur to me about how RnR was handled there. The first was that you were on campaigns for a lot of the time, so you were limited by the spare parts you brought with you. Lost your LL and don't have a spare, you gotta go without. They also had a dynamic economy system where you would read a news bulletin that LRM factories were destroyed, so the weapon merchant would only have 1 launcher and 2 tons of ammo. If the contract doesn't pay for ammo, you take more energy heavy mechs. My point is that RnR is easily balanced and can be very interesting for a single player scripted campaign. Multi-player is a different story. It tends to just add to the grind time to get what you want.

[Bishop Steiner]

Reno Blade, on 26 September 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

HA! Not really on topic.

I know that Reno is the redhead and Rude the bald guy.
Even though my character's first name is Reno and my youth was influenced by FF7, my Name was not because of one of these characters.
I'm no longer a red-head and instead shave my head.

But even with these similarities, when I created my new Signatur, I found the image of Rude which looks pretty much like me nowadays, so I used this image.

Now back to topic.
In my link I had used a system of contract variables (max armor/ammo/structure repair per round) and loyalty + conquered planets to increase the gains by beeing good at CW.
Ofc, there needs to be a lower limit for the losing faction to not go negative.
And the question if trials need repair too is still open.

so that isn't actually a Joseph Mallon and Reno Blade bromance pic that Joe posted?

[LordKnightFandragon]

Azargo, on 25 September 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

If R&R comes back I'll consider quitting. I stopped playing WT because of 30-40k repair bills which make it very easy to go negative (that, and ludicrously bad battle ratings), even if you have premium time. MWO at least lets me play with whatever mech I feel like taking out, even though c-bill grind makes acquiring modules a long and tedious affair, not to mention it took me over a year to collect all the engines I use.

I don't think MWO, or any game for that matter, needs chores and pointless money-sinks.

Well some games go over board with it. World of Tanks end game? In that game unless you run premium or are god in an ETank you lose money most matches. I know it is annoying as ****. But some cost associated with being shot to **** and spending ammo, I can see it, but to the point of some games? naw. idk what WT is about, but I know Wot, by Tier 7 you will start losing a few thousand a game and if you dont pork the enemy team and score a good amount your losing, 10k or so. I never lost to much, but yeah.....

In MWO, given that mechs cost 10 million cbills a pop, weapons are half a mill a piece and modules are 6mill, I can see a RnR cost just making this game impossible to get anywhere. I know I had a few decent games, on a x2, scoring 600 some odd damage, assists up the yang and made like 100K or so....but an average game lol...20-30k...so yeah, for this game as it is, RnR would be miserable.

[Reno Blade]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 September 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

so that isn't actually a Joseph Mallon and Reno Blade bromance pic that Joe posted?

Not possible.
I am both, Reno and Brute in one, but better

[Ronan]

I thought R&R added lots to the game's feel. I liked it. I know it also penalized brand new pilots, and spawned the plague of suicide farmers.

When R&R went away, cbill payouts went down to cover (uncover? de-cover?) the now missing costs. If R&R came back, it would/should come with an increase in match payouts.

But, to bring it back would require mountains of brainstorming, design effort, and coding resources -- to get it "right" and farmer-free. I feel those mountains are best left alone until after CW Phase 3 (4?). Plenty of more important mountains to level first!

[ApolloKaras]

I don't think people remember but the cbill Rewards were quite a bit higher with R&R. Yen-Lo standard engine, endo, ac 20 few mediums, with premium time? Many bills to be had. Although I don't know how my ember would fair Lol... I always saw it as a challenge. How much could I do with how little and be rewarded for it. Now I get punished if I take anything other than my best mechs, because there is no variety, and no reward for taking little. The game and the rewards system drive you to max out all the things.

Edited by Saxie, 26 September 2014 - 07:59 AM.