744 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Pezzer, on 16 October 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

Umm, they said that there would be, for example on the HBK-4G, ballistic bonuses that would stack with the AC/20 bonuses.

Russ said this was what they were aiming for in the town hall. For example, all of the AC/20 quirks would be
+15% Range
+15% Velocity
+15% cooldown
While there would also be a +10% bonuses for ballistics in general.

Now the HBK-4G is quite literally only going to be played competitively with the AC/20 build. That's a bit boring, if you ask me.
Least it gets generalized laser bonuses, I guess. So I could go LLs and an AC/5 maybe. That would still kinda suck without those bonus ballistic quirks, though.

Given that currently, it's only played competitively... err, it's not played competitively at all. And if it where, like every other mech used competitively, it'd only have one given build anyways.

This specific quirks increase the odds of varied loadouts in competitive play. Instead of having Weapon Combo X (see: How we had 2xAC5+PPC for so long) equipped to whichever chassis can hold it, we may see "Well, AC20+4ML on the Hunchback 4G", because of it's set of bonuses, and something else entirely on another mech even if it has exactly the same hardpoints available.

So, this at least stands to make more mechs competitive, and more builds competitive. You'll always have ideal builds on a given chassis, but at least they're not all the same.

[Wintersdark]

MuonNeutrino, on 16 October 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

The other worry is that, if the weapon quirks are based around specific weapons that are 'thematic' to the variant or the variant's stock build, it benefits some mechs more than others based on the actual usefulness of those thematic weapons. For example, take the HBK-4H that they listed. Even if its quirks were tier 5 in strength rather than tier 4 and it had a velocity quirk to match the 4G's, it would still have weaker quirks than the 4G simply because the ac10 is an inferior weapon compared to the ac20. This is going to cause problems where a variant is underbuffed because of the choice of weapons to apply its quirks to.

So, here's the thing. It's a LOT harder to quantify what's a good weapon and what's a poor weapon, when the weapons in question have different stats on different mechs.

Take this 4H. Sure, the AC20 is a superior weapon on it's own. But that 4H can pack 5 Medium Lasers as well, each of which fire 20% faster and generate 20% less heat. That's another 25pts in a strike, a flat 20% DPS increase on those 5 Medium Lasers. The 4G gets an energy buff too, but not nearly that significant, and the 4G has less tonnage available to do that when packing an AC20.

[Pezzer]

Wintersdark, on 16 October 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Given that currently, it's only played competitively... err, it's not played competitively at all. And if it where, like every other mech used competitively, it'd only have one given build anyways.

This specific quirks increase the odds of varied loadouts in competitive play. Instead of having Weapon Combo X (see: How we had 2xAC5+PPC for so long) equipped to whichever chassis can hold it, we may see "Well, AC20+4ML on the Hunchback 4G", because of it's set of bonuses, and something else entirely on another mech even if it has exactly the same hardpoints available.

So, this at least stands to make more mechs competitive, and more builds competitive. You'll always have ideal builds on a given chassis, but at least they're not all the same.

I think it does the opposite. now the AC/20 Hunchback is the only viable build post-November patch.
Unless you wanna gimp yourself for range, which isn't worth doing on a HBK anyways...

Also, the meta is different from the days that you speak of. People don't just stuff AC/5s and PPCs on every mech nowadays. They stuff on whatever the most optimal setup for that mech, given the role, is. I've spoken to groups that use LBX/10 Jagers because those are the dedicated armor strippers, while their Nova Primes are their finishers, etc etc.

[Dark Bard]

IMHO that quirks system may kill the customisation. We can get lot of clones of 1 chassis((((

[Wintersdark]

Pezzer, on 16 October 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

I think it does the opposite. now the AC/20 Hunchback is the only viable build post-November patch.
Unless you wanna gimp yourself for range, which isn't worth doing on a HBK anyways...

There is no HBK-4G seriously competitive build right now. None. Using a 4G is a flat out disadvantage compared to several 55t mechs capable of mounting the same build, better.

Quote

Also, the meta is different from the days that you speak of. People don't just stuff AC/5s and PPCs on every mech nowadays. They stuff on whatever the most optimal setup for that mech, given the role, is. I've spoken to groups that use LBX/10 Jagers because those are the dedicated armor strippers, while their Nova Primes are their finishers, etc etc.

These groups are not competitive groups, I'm sorry. There is no situation where a LB-X AC10 Jag is an optimal build. None. You can "do well" with it, yes, but it's flat out inferior to an AC10 in virtually every situation even against targets stripped of armor, because an AC10 is better at destroying the mech section hit *and* better at destroying components within it.

Also, above, take care using the term "viable".

Practically everything is "viable". What most things aren't is "optimal".

See, if you argue you should use a LBX in some case, this is exactly the same as arguing you should use, say, an AC10 on a 4G: it's not getting the buff the AC20 does, and as such is giving up what Could Have Been in favour of something specific you want (ac10+ppcs? whatever). It's still viable, it's just not optimal anymore.


Edit: With regards to the PPC/AC5 thing, I'm aware it's different now, it was just a convenient example.

The current "meta" is more in flux, but that won't last. It never does. There have been a lot of changes and more are coming, so until the new "ideal builds" settle in and trickle down (and they will) it looks a lot better.

Ultimately, there will always be an Optimal build for a given mech. That only really matters, though, at highly competitive levels: below that, an AC10 HBK-4G will still be better after Nov. 4th than it is right now. Not as good as an AC20 4G, but then again... it's not as good as an AC20 4G right now either.

Edited by Wintersdark, 16 October 2014 - 06:15 PM.

[Macksheen]

I hope it isn't too late to suggest, but when doing quirks with specific weapons in mind, try and make the world applicable to others if possible but non optimal.

As am example, a buff to ballistic range by 25 or 50 meters isn't much of a gain for AC2, but is for a 20 without being an AC20 only quirk. A heat reduction buff on ballistics won't help the gauss or AC5 much, but would be huge on the AC2 ... without being an AC2 only quirk. I realize that this may not always be possible, but if you can that would promote both the referential load out and leave room for creativity and variety.

[Mawai]

Just to clarify ...

All the quirks for weapon cooldown cite a "+" percentage bonus .... e.g. +25% PPC cooldown. Usually this would be interpreted as an increase since it is positive. Laser beam duration is listed as a "-" value when it appears to be decreased. So, I just wanted some clarification as to whether the "+" cooldown values represent an increase in cooldown and thus a decrease in ROF and DPS for the weapon or whether the use of "+" in this circumstance actually means a reduction in cooldown time.

[Mad Strike]

I wonder how will be the grid iron quirks

[Tezcatli]

Can't wait to see how they differentiate my Orions, Blackjacks, and Trebuckets. :3

[Oogalook]

The very large buff to a single gun on the hunchback makes it almost unthinkable to mount anything else. The current system will make the variety of loadouts for each variant much weaker, and this is contrary to the spirit of the game.

I recommend that the buff be split up: A general primary weapon-family buff, and then a specific buff for one member of that family.
The Hunchback could receive, instead of +25% on three AC20-specific quirks, instead be given +15% bonus to the same aspects for all Ballistic weapons, and an extra 10% on the AC20. This would still give emphasis to the particular build featuring the AC20, but would allow other ballistics setups to flourish. I believe that this was the original plan as stated at an earlier time in Town Hall, right?

The proposition for +25% AC20 effectiveness on the hunchback 4G is unacceptable. That hunchback has the most ballistics hardpoints, but would not be reasonably able to justify experimentation with nonstandard setups.

Edited by Oogalook, 16 October 2014 - 08:46 PM.

[Asmosis]

The quirk system looks like its shaping up really well.

The bonuses are substantial enough to balance vs clan tech provided you make full use of them. As for comments about this potentially pigeon holing certain chassis into set weapon groups, that's almost how it is right now. It'll also add a reason to keep soooo many of the variants that are just a poorer version of the most popular variant. How many ppl honestly bought more than 3 variants for a mech, or just took the "best" 3?

Edited by Asmosis, 17 October 2014 - 12:44 AM.

[Lily from animove]

The quirks sound good so far, its at least worth a test (I don't think adjusting quirks is THAT much effort once they are in the database its just number adjustment). Giving specific mechs specific characteristiks is needed to bring them back into the range of variety.

[Evogenesis]

I fear for my pulse boat Awesome 9M. An unconventional build in its own right, it only works because of the energy cooldown quirks the Awesome chassis was given before. Now it looks like those are being stripped to make it into a PPC boat.

Just like ghost heat, I fear these quirks are going to ruin a lot of builds. Sure, give a specific lore weapon loadout a bonus but also give the chassis' some general quirks too...

[Thorqemada]

AC20 cooldown +25% reads to me like the cooldown increases from 4 to 5 seconds and that would hardly be an improvement?

[Darkcloud]

+1 on the clarification with cooldown, etc. quirks. Are the +/- confused, or are there some negative quirks to counterbalance the positive ones?

I'm actually quite looking forward to this system.
Yes it will cement certain builds on certain frames (and I'll have to by a 4G, as I've been running the 4H as my AC20 platform), but in my mind it's more true to the original Battletech, yes you CAN run different builds on these Mechs, but it's hard to do and might not be optimal. At the moment there's pretty much one build I run on all AC-capable Hunchies, this will probably get me experimenting with different builds to see how the quirks even things out.

So it may be true that we will see less diverse builds per variant, but I'm hoping to see more varied builds and chassis overall.

[Oogalook]

I find this system totally unacceptable. It suggests that the cost of IS 'mechs becoming competitive against clan 'mechs is to loose all benefit of customization.

Please, PLEASE backtrack on this. There's no justification for ONLY buffing a single weapon loadout on each of these 'mechs. I cannot abide the abolition of the customization element of 'mech ownership.

[Macksheen]

I wouldn't be against some few specific mechs with specific weapon quirks - but otherwise yes ... customization goes.

Be very sparing with how many mechs you pigeonhole. Mech creation and customization is part and parcel to this game. Stock is fun ... but I dare say more people customize than play stock. De-incenting customization will drive folks away.

[C E Dwyer]

Seen the new quirks for the 4g etc and its truly a great job.

thank you for turning back from stompy robot and making it mechwarrior as it should be

[2500kgm3]

Could we make AC-10 quirks apply to LBX-10s too? it would help an under-used weapon while allowing for more than one single build to be making use of all the quirks, bringing more variety to the table.

[Thorqemada]

LBX10 Needs a fixed spread matrix that makes the weapon better Insider 225m and the AC10 better beyond 225m.