166 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

Last night in a dream Jesus came to me and said " Do not fret inner sphere mechwarrior, the nerf hammer of justice doth commeth to the Op clan tech."

Have I been playing to much Mechwarrior? I think not.

[El Bandito]

Aresye, on 29 September 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

Ah, the voice of reason. So rare nowadays.

All I know is that I sure as heck won't miss that 20% cooling when I don't have half my weapons. It's is like cutting a LoL champion's mana regeneration by 20% after deleting half his abilities.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 September 2014 - 10:08 PM.

[Sable Phoenix]

If there is going to be a penalty implemented for taking engine crits on Clan XLs, there need to be the same penalties on IS engines as well. If an IS mech takes 2 crits worth of damage in its engine, whether it's side or center torso, they also need the heat penalty.

This means that PGI needs to implement ACTUAL critical hits so that the engine can take damage before the section that holds it is outright destroyed.

Edited by Sable Phoenix, 29 September 2014 - 10:08 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 29 September 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

All I know is that I sure as heck won't miss that 20% cooling when I don't have half my weapons.

Do keep in mind that you'll also lose roughly half of your heatsinks other than those 20% engine sinks, depending on how you set up the build. So, in general, this would make a symmetrical Clan robot with 1 side torso blown off a bit less heat efficient than a Clan robot in mint condition, all things being considered.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 29 September 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Do keep in mind that you'll also lose roughly half of your heatsinks other than those 20% engine sinks, depending on how you set up the build. So, in general, this would make a symmetrical Clan robot with 1 side torso blown off a bit less heat efficient than a Clan robot in mint condition, all things being considered.

Actually I know plenty of Clan mechs that has fixed heatsinks in one or both legs. Add to the fact that Clan heat sinks can be mounted in the CT and the other leg...

Edited by El Bandito, 29 September 2014 - 10:13 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 29 September 2014 - 10:11 PM, said:

Actually I know plenty of Clan mechs that has fixed heatsinks in the legs.

Only a few of the chassis have that. Peacedove has them in both legs. Dire Whale has it in 1 leg, and can optionally have a second if it so desires (although I'd prefer to stuff ammo there). The Mad Doge and Cute Fox can fit an optional sink in each leg if they want to. That's all for the current lineup.

For Wave 2, the Lelbringer and Man O'verboard can fit one per leg if they feel like it.


For CT dubs, the list that can do it includes the Mad Doge, Dire Whale, and Peacedove. The Cute Fox has 1 hardwired into its CT. For Wave 2, the Lelbringer and Man O'verboard can join the fun. However, the Man O'verboard would have to sacrifice 2 energy hardpoints to do that, which is a bad idea on an already hardpoint starved chassis...

Edited by FupDup, 29 September 2014 - 10:18 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

I think 20% will do next to nothing.

However as others have said, better in small steps that huge bounds.

As long as PGI actually REVISIT quickly not 6 months later. A few weeks of data should give a reasonable idea then adjust with more heat, or mobility restrictions as needed in small increments.

[ImperialKnight]

He has already stated this is just a first step/interim measure. There will be more nerfs incoming once the engineering team is done with CW

[CocoaJin]

ManDaisy, on 29 September 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Going by that logics, clans should lose 66% or 2/3s their engine heat sinks, not only 20%.

That's only if you assume it's the lose of heat sinks that kill engine...but this isn't the case. Fusion engines in BT dont produce much heat. Heatsinks aren't for the engine, but for all the heat bleed when you have converted that fusion energy into a power source(presumably electricity) and push it through the conduit/wiring at high rates. Also the waste heat from the weapon and locomotion systems while using the energy.

So Russ is saying the 2 crits on Clan XL engines are pressumably damaging 20% of the heatsinks(one sink per crit)since MWO doesn't have variable engine output levels to say 2 crits should equate to a XX% decrease in power and thus the mech's max speed, rate of fire and all that in addition to decreased cooling...though I wish we did. Yes, the TT rules say 3 crits kill the engine, but it can't be because of the damaged heatsinks, but because there is some threshold crossed with that much damage that prevents the engine from maintaining reactor containment, in addition to the lost heatsinks. No containment means no way of sustaining the reaction, so no power. So dead engine, but presumably only lost 3 out of the typical 10 heatsinks.

Edited by CocoaJin, 29 September 2014 - 10:35 PM.

[AssaultPig]

it honestly seems likely to be a fairly irrelevant change anyway, at least until more of the partial engine destruction stuff comes in. Losing 20% of your engine DHS isn't a big deal when you've just lost half your weapons anyway.

[Cyborne Elemental]

20% loss in heatcap?
or 20% loss in heat dissipation?

Not that its going to make any difference when you lose a torso and are down to 50% of any heat generated by weapons fire anyway.

This "nerf" is pointless, and isn't going to change anything substancial whatso ever, besides hurting the lights and Mediums again, because they don't have to tonnage or critspace to bolster their heat dissipation any farther than what the best setups are now.

The only nerf that makes any sense at all, is mobility hit.

a 8-10% reduction in top speed. (nullifying SpeedTweak)
a 10-15% reduction in turning/twisting/arm movement. (nullifying 1/2 of basic skiltree bonuses)
On Torso loss
Is where they should be aiming at.

Edited by Mister D, 30 September 2014 - 12:58 AM.

[Viges]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 September 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

so magically they have 2/3 of their heat sinks in each side torso? Wouldn't that be ...4/3s? Assuming none in the CT?

[Firemage]

keep in mind the TW S omnipods are getting hit soon to.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

I think a top speed or acceleration penalty would be fair on top of the heat sink loss. Considering half your weapons are probably gone if you lose a torso already, a heat sink penalty wont make much of a difference.

[-Natural Selection-]

Franklin Delano Bluth, on 29 September 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

I think a top speed or acceleration penalty would be fair on top of the heat sink loss. Considering half your weapons are probably gone if you lose a torso already, a heat sink penalty wont make much of a difference.

Tell that to Mr Direwolf. Or even the little clan light that is already 50kph shower than his little adversaries (cue the sad "only you can help save a slow mech" commercial)

[Victor Morson]

ManDaisy, on 29 September 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Going by that logics, clans should lose 66% or 2/3s their engine heat sinks, not only 20%.

Really the engine should be producing waste heat, and reduce the "heat floor" by a considerable amount. 20% is, in fact, too light.

But the idea is solid and has merit, in particular if they opt to add more heat effects (namely slow down / torso slow down / HUD problems) down the line. Which would be very nice, indeed.

A good step in the right direction, but definite severity increases are needed.

[Marmon Rzohr]

I think reactions may be premature. It certainly is a nerf and while it may not be spectatular, we'll have to wait and see. Making smaller adjustments is a better idea, imho.

Although I do think that it's very likely that a movement penalty will be implemented as well. But that's just how it seems to me, and I was sure that the PPC speed nerf wouldn't kill it completely... :-D

[Redbackz]

ManDaisy, on 29 September 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

That actually makes a lot of sense. But still, 20% heat sink loss is too light for clans compared to instant death of IS mechs. I have no problem with IS instant death, but clan penalties are too light!

Now it were 3 heat sinks AND 33% speed decrease, that would be balanced.

It would also make sense to increase a mechs speed by weight. Lose weight = gain speed. Reduce your initial mech loadout weight = increased speed.

Too many calculations for this game I would say.

[MauttyKoray]

"OMFG NERF MOAR, OP NOT ENOUGH, CLAN DIES WHEN XL LOSES ST BETTER!"

This **** is getting annoying. People say that its not enough...really, you've PLAYED IT? You don't know what it will do because you haven't done **** with it. You can't know what it will do without playing it or seeing it play out in game either. I am so ******* sick of these threads bitching and complaining about a potentially good balance feature that HASN'T EVEN BEEN PUT IN PUBLIC RELEASE and therefore you have no credible opinion on it.

Yes there is a time and place to complain when changes come out that the community agrees as a whole will be bad for the game. This is not one of them, so stop it and shut up until it releases and then we are able to see it play out and make an opinion on the change. Take note that the Clan XL penalty is also not the only change either, meaning we have to wait and take all the changes into account to get things working correctly.

[Risen]

20% in lost heat sinks is a good start, better than swinging the 2-handed nerfhammer of doom directly...

isn't the rule still up that the internal engine heat sinks are actual doubles and not 1.4 like the "external" ones?
the that hurts I think...

with the loss of heatsinks comes a drop off in heat dissipation and heat cap.
hopefully the heat cap loss will create shut downs if the mech loosing it's side torso is already in the "high reds"

An interesting fact is that the Stormcrow with its "only" 10 internal heatsinks only looses 2 compared to most of the other clan mechs being able to carry more in the CT.