25 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

Incentives for Pilots to Actually Pilot Light Mechs

Currently it is understood by most that there is little incentive if any to play a light or a medium mech over the heavier chassis. This post will concentrate mainly on the Light mechs as that is my experience level and I really have not had that much with the mediums. Lights have less armor than the heavier chassis and cannot take the beating of their heavier brethren. In the past it was not a big issue as Hit Reg and Lag Shields were enough to keep lights alive. That situation has changed greatly, and lights are now being nailed 500+ meters out especially with the range of the newer clan weapons. This has led to a migration of light pilots to the heavier chassis for obvious reasons.

There are currently 3 roles that a light can fill, that of scout, harasser and sniper. Currently the size of the maps makes scouting all but pointless. With the exception of Terra Therma at the outside, with 24 mechs on the field the enemy is spotted within the first minute of the map. Add to that the dorito chip will pop on top of any non ecm scout to make it near impossible for a non ECM mech to scout. Along with that, there is no quick way to relay scouting information to your team mates. Currently you have to stop moving type into the chat and then start moving again and pray no one saw you and is coming after you. To effectively be in the scout role you almost need ECM.

In the harasser role, most lights are decent, they can carry the firepower to indeed harass and be a pain if not dealt with. However therein lies part of the problem. Once a heavier mech is in pursuit, with the fixes to Hit Reg, Lag Shield and range, the harasser will almost always get in trouble. Currently for harassers to be viable they stick to hit and run tactics. If they stay in the same place to long it could be devastating to them. Another problem for harassers is the turn radius and speed of some of the heavier mechs, they can torso twist quickly enough to cause problems for any mech.

The sniper role is a good role for the light mech, however it works best with ECM. Once again whent eh dorito chip shows up you are targeted and quickly at that. Lights cannot stay still. However an ECM sniper can wreak havoc in the back lines of the enemy. However it falls to the same problem once they are spotted. Little armor and fixes hit reg and lag shielding.

The above is just a quick overview of the roles of lights and some of the problems we face. The question is, how to get people to play lights more frequently. Russ has already made a CC post about it yesterday that they are looking into this, and honestly it would be nice for him to post some of the ideas they are throwing about to fix it. Here are some of mine.

1. Future maps need to be much larger, currently you have 12v12 on 8v8 maps, (Forest Colony, River City, Caustic Valley…..) You can literally stand at the spawn point and shoot the other team at their spawn point in Forest Colony. This will allow mechs to actually be able to scout

2. Communication currently the relaying of information to the team is miniscule as a scout. To actually relay information you put yourself into harms way, with the way radar and the dorito work. Also to type any chat in, you will lose control of your mechs controls, which makes tying while you are actively evading impossible. In this day in age of computer gaming, relying on a text base communication is just flat out unacceptable. VOIP is very much needed or another way to relay information on the fly

3. Re-work the bonuses of the UAV for Light Pilots. Currently the implementation of UAV is sub optimal from a scouts point of view. We have to make a run into the enemy lines to get the UAV up, usually taking a good amount of damage doing it. Furthermore the UAV costs 40k C-bills and you NEVER can recoup the cost of that UAV. Bigger bonuses have to be given for scouts and UAV’s.

4. Some C-Bill incentive not just for playing a light in the que, but for actually performing. We have all seen light pilots score less than 50 points of damage and we have all seen pilots score 500+ damage. For a light to score 500+ points of damage they know what they are doing with the recent changes to the game (Hit Heg, HSR, Lag shield removal). I gauge a light by the 10 times your tonnage rule. If you do 10 times your tonnage in damage then the light did a great job. However there are times when I will do less than that, but I managed to pull 3 to 4 mechs to chase me, I go down in a blaze of glory to 4 mechs, while my 11 mech teammates roll the other 8. Yet I get nothing for doing that extra bit to ensure our victory. This also ties into number 2, I cannot easily tell my team that I have pulled 4 mechs off and to push without seriously jeopardizing my evasion.

5. Fall damage, this has got to go for lights. <Redacted as Russ has addressed this>

These are just some of the ideas that I have come up with. I very much would like to know what PGI has in mind for making lights more popular again. Currently we are a dying breed, which is a shame, as it brings in a different aspect to the game play.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 30 September 2014 - 09:01 AM.

[Christof Romulus]

Piloting a Light Mech is its own reward!

[Project_Mercy]

Your post is primarily based off the premise that hitreg is fixed, which it is not. If it ever gets fixed, then I could see some of your points being valid. As it is, the toughest tank in the game is still a spider, especially if they have lag shield.

I think the game would be well served to limit the consumables to class. UAVs for Lights, Strikes for mediums, Coolshots for heavies, etc. It would provide more distinction for certain classes, and reduce a lot of the more irrational things PUGs do to farm c-bills at the expense of their team.

[Ph30nix]

Wraeththix Constantine, on 30 September 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Your post is primarily based off the premise that hitreg is fixed, which it is not. If it ever gets fixed, then I could see some of your points being valid. As it is, the toughest tank in the game is still a spider, especially if they have lag shield.

I think the game would be well served to limit the consumables to class. UAVs for Lights, Strikes for mediums, Coolshots for heavies, etc. It would provide more distinction for certain classes, and reduce a lot of the more irrational things PUGs do to farm c-bills at the expense of their team.

as someone with a good connection and ping (usually) i sadly do not get to benefit from the lag shield and hit reg issues

[Metus regem]

I would suggest, depending on if it is an IS light or a Clan light, they should be doing different roles.

An Adder and Kit Fox are escort mechs, both are running around the same speed as the Nova, Storm Crow, Mad Dog, Summoner and Timber Wolf. They are not much faster than a War Hawk for that matter... that tells me, the are meant to move as a combined force, with the option for the Kit Fox to provide ECM and AMS support, and do it like a boss, the should be rewarded for filling the role of an escort.

IS lights are a different animal, they are more scout and harassment oriented, sniping isn't something they are really well suited too, to light to provide enough of the long range weapons, that for the most part are very heavy for what they do, range and damage. The AC2 is the king of range, but it does very little damage and is very heavy for what it does. the ERLL, is 5 tons, but heat intensive and burn time, taking it out of what a light should be doing. IS lights need to be rewarded for providing battlefield information, or denying that information to the OpFor.

[Adiuvo]

Monetary incentives don't fix the root problems of the class.

Lights overall are underpowered compared to assaults/heavies. This is due to their relative lack of effective agility. They are not fast enough to really maneuver around optimal heavies/assaults and therefore have no positive to the matchup, even if that assault is entirely isolated.

Boost their turn rate/accel/decel by ~20% and things will be better. Since this is a movement based boost there's a subsequent increase to skill cap, so this won't really be a boost to poor light pilots.

[Bilbo]

Every now and then I pilot one of my lights for giggles. There is nothing they could do that would make me want to play one more often than that.

[Wolfways]

Funny, practically every light i see is a brawler (IS lights only), and armour doesn't mean as much as it did in TT. In MWO speed is king.

Imo less people play lights because it is harder to get high damage scores than in the other classes, but those that can do it do it well...and a lot of the time it's a light with the highest match score.

[Bilbo]

Wolfways, on 30 September 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Funny, practically every light i see is a brawler (IS lights only), and armour doesn't mean as much as it did in TT. In MWO speed is king.

Imo less people play lights because it is harder to get high damage scores than in the other classes, but those that can do it do it well...and a lot of the time it's a light with the highest match score.

It's the speed that I don't care for. My favorite mechs are all 100 kph or less.

[Metus regem]

Wolfways, on 30 September 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Funny, practically every light i see is a brawler (IS lights only), and armour doesn't mean as much as it did in TT. In MWO speed is king.

Imo less people play lights because it is harder to get high damage scores than in the other classes, but those that can do it do it well...and a lot of the time it's a light with the highest match score.

Not to mention high damage scores mean about as much as KDR in this game.... nothing. This game is about team work, I'd rather have a 11 other guys on my team that don't brake 400 damage each, than one guy with 1000+

[CocoaJin]

The minute they forced IS Lights to spawn into an arena-style map, with a match start timer and a known starting point, you effectively forced them out of their niche.

IS lights thrive off of surprise and fog of war. Off an open and mostly unpredictable environment where they can patrol/recon and encounter opposing forced just about anywhere, anytime, with no match timers to prevent the opposition from being complacent or caught of guard. Lights need the ability to first and foremost, operate separate from a main force...to have value in taskings that are pre/post main force engagement and operating in a support role on the periphery of the main battle. That's not to say lights shouldn't or couldn't participate amongst the main force, just that they shouldnt have to as the only means of contributing.

Until then, lights will remain relatively inefficient/ineffective units on the battlefield for which the preference would be to have a heavier unit in its place.

Lights need to have the option of operating in an area without being directly tied to and filling a slot for the main force they are in support of.

[Brody319]

There is no reason to play mediums. Lights are very useful. Even before 3/3/3/3 system lights were used quite frequently. Mediums are too slow to dodge enemy fire, and carry too few weapons to compete with heavies and assault mechs. Lights have their use, Mediums do not however.

[Wolfways]

I stopped using lights after mastering the Commando and Spider. I usually got low damage scores because i played them stock but survivability was through the roof...with stock engines.

Playing a Spider now just basically means being the last PITA that the other team needs to chase around for the rest of the match...unless it's a good pilot and he kills the other team. They're ridiculous to kill though.
Firestarters are pretty much the same as Spiders. Ravens are legged too easily. Jenners are good mechs and do very well with a good pilot.

Actually, I'd say the only really bad light (apart from the Raven legs) is the Locust, not that i haven't seen pilots do well in them too.


Oh yeah, and lights have basically taken the mediums place as fast brawlers.

Edited by Wolfways, 30 September 2014 - 11:48 AM.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

lights need moer armor . end of story. If we are going to play the game where the highest pings get the most advantage something needs to change.

[-Ramrod-]

I've pilot light mechs like 95% of the time. A light mech can be vary valuable if the pilot is skilled enough. But many are legged way too easily. I know I might get some flack for this, especially when it comes to Spiders, but I think the hitboxes need to be decreased for legs by 10%. Going 150+ kph a light mech's leg should be quite hard to hit. I don't see any real way to make them more effective than they are however. Map size would help definitely. An ECM variant for each light mech maybe. UAV's should be launched like a NARC beacon. Of course limit the range and such. Would help with the "run in, launch UAV, lose 2 components, UAV lasts 30 seconds or gets destroyed instantly".

[Darian DelFord]

My post is directed from the point of view of Inner Sphere Lights

Wraeththix Constantine, on 30 September 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Your post is primarily based off the premise that hitreg is fixed, which it is not. If it ever gets fixed, then I could see some of your points being valid. As it is, the toughest tank in the game is still a spider, especially if they have lag shield.

I think the game would be well served to limit the consumables to class. UAVs for Lights, Strikes for mediums, Coolshots for heavies, etc. It would provide more distinction for certain classes, and reduce a lot of the more irrational things PUGs do to farm c-bills at the expense of their team.

Like another poster Hit Reg is not a problem for me, My ping is almost always under 50, I am hit quite easily when I am not careful. Ping "should" not be counted on for defense for a light even though I know it is and I know people who use it to their advantage. I do like the idea of limiting the consumables to certain mech classes

CocoaJin, on 30 September 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

The minute they forced IS Lights to spawn into an arena-style map, with a match start timer and a known starting point, you effectively forced them out of their niche.

IS lights thrive off of surprise and fog of war. Off an open and mostly unpredictable environment where they can patrol/recon and encounter opposing forced just about anywhere, anytime, with no match timers to prevent the opposition from being complacent or caught of guard. Lights need the ability to first and foremost, operate separate from a main force...to have value in taskings that are pre/post main force engagement and operating in a support role on the periphery of the main battle. That's not to say lights shouldn't or couldn't participate amongst the main force, just that they shouldnt have to as the only means of contributing.

Until then, lights will remain relatively inefficient/ineffective units on the battlefield for which the preference would be to have a heavier unit in its place.

Lights need to have the option of operating in an area without being directly tied to and filling a slot for the main force they are in support of.

Part of my points above, the maps are simply to small and we all have them memorized. One way is to randomize the spawn in locations however with these small maps there are only so many places that you can spawn.

Brody319, on 30 September 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

There is no reason to play mediums. Lights are very useful. Even before 3/3/3/3 system lights were used quite frequently. Mediums are too slow to dodge enemy fire, and carry too few weapons to compete with heavies and assault mechs. Lights have their use, Mediums do not however.

In closed beta lights feared the swayback. Why? They could keep up!!. I say undo the engine nerf they suffered way on back when and give them some of their speed back. I think this would help the mediums alot.

Wolfways, on 30 September 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

I stopped using lights after mastering the Commando and Spider. I usually got low damage scores because i played them stock but survivability was through the roof...with stock engines.

Playing a Spider now just basically means being the last PITA that the other team needs to chase around for the rest of the match...unless it's a good pilot and he kills the other team. They're ridiculous to kill though.
Firestarters are pretty much the same as Spiders. Ravens are legged too easily. Jenners are good mechs and do very well with a good pilot.

Actually, I'd say the only really bad light (apart from the Raven legs) is the Locust, not that i haven't seen pilots do well in them too.


Oh yeah, and lights have basically taken the mediums place as fast brawlers.

Even though Spiders are lights there is something just plain wrong with them. I do not care what anyone says even though most agree. Spiders are damn near indestructable with the damage they can shrug off. Whether it be bad hit boxes or lag or hit reg, spiders are the worst lights in this regards

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 30 September 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

lights need moer armor . end of story. If we are going to play the game where the highest pings get the most advantage something needs to change.

I do not know about that, the armor was already doubled, however what I think would help the game tremendously is return all the ammo amounts per ton back to their table top values. Most were significantly increased when the armor was doubled. Do this and you fix alot of the AC/Gauss/LRM QQ you see, as the builds that rely on those will have to be very careful with how they build their mechs. Which in turn helps the survivability of light mechs.

[Revis Volek]

Brody319, on 30 September 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

There is no reason to play mediums. Lights are very useful. Even before 3/3/3/3 system lights were used quite frequently. Mediums are too slow to dodge enemy fire, and carry too few weapons to compete with heavies and assault mechs. Lights have their use, Mediums do not however.

As A Medium Mech Jockey, id have to say i strongly disagree, My Shadow hawks, Griffins and Blackjacks love to eat lights for lunch. My GFN-3M and SHD-2D2 are geared to be light hunters and do a mighty fine job at it.

I do much better in Mediums then lights due to lack of lag shield. I have a ping constantly under 50 so when i AC20 comes at my spider it actually hits it and i get legged or i die. It's no surprise people with high pings favor light mechs because they are invincible at that point. The mediums are essentially just heavy lights for me...i hunt lights in them and never take larger mechs head on. I look for back shots, weak mechs and anything under my weight and let them have it!

Also if we increase the speed (for lights) that will only exacerbate the issues we have already and put MASC even further away then it is now. Lights already go much, much faster then they are suppose to....we have mechs doing 150kph that were NEVER meant to and you want to make them faster? Doesn't this go against everything you put in the OP?

I also for a small buff in armor, will make games last longer and will help those mechs that actually need the buff (light, mediums and some heavies). But i dont want a double increases across the board like last time. I think it should be based on weight class and be something like this.....

Lights = 10% Armor Boost Legs and Arms, 8% CT, RT/LT
Medium = 7% Arm, Legs, 6% CT, RT/LT
Heavy = 4% Arm, Legs, 2%-0% CT, RT/LT
Assaults = 2% Arm, Legs, 0% CT, RT/LT


Granted that was put up in haste and rather crude but i cant see it doing any harm other then those with Lag shield already getting a buff. They are also upping the fall damage speed for light to 48m/s i think? Which will help those legs stay healthy!

Edited by DarthRevis, 30 September 2014 - 12:44 PM.

[Brody319]

DarthRevis, on 30 September 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

As A Medium Mech Jokecy, id have to say i strongly disagree, My Shadow hawks, Griffins and BlackJacks love to eat lights for lunch. My GFN-3M and SHD-2D2 are geared to be light hunters and do a might fine job at it.

Yes but in the lore Mediums are like super common. work horse of the war. In this game most people would prefer you brought a heavy or Assault to the fight rather than a medium. Mediums pretty much have to take the role of fire support and light control because they can't punch through enemy mechs as fast as the heavier mechs.

[Revis Volek]

Yes but this was only because they were often cheap to manufacture and easy to outfit. If everyone in the IS had money they would bring the Fatties as well!

But lore has been thrown out a looooong time ago, if you want to get to lore you need to change more then just the light mechs niche. If we had R & R im sure you would see more Mediums and Lights....*Hint Hint PGI*

[Kalimaster]

An intresting point has been made here. So I will make two suggestions on how to increase the participation of light Mechs. Understand, these are only temporaty fixes to the problem.

Have a Challenge where you get a days worth of premium time for piloting a light Mech. However to be fair, extend the time period for this challenge completion into a week instead of just a weekend. Keep the Challenge SImple. Kill five Mechs or something.

Have a Challenge where a player can win a light Mech such as a Raven (the Raven being an older Mech from the introduction of the game).