647 replies to this topic

[ExAstris]

Void Angel is right. Just because the presence of ECM is largely what put some mechs in the tiers they are in, that alone doesn't mean that they should then have every additional benefit the same mechs of that tier get. ECM is a huge force multiplier (in pugs anyways), dealing with it during any balance pass is always going to be a nightmare (unless they actually remove the stealth field of course)

So the choice of whether to give ECM (and JJ) mechs fewer buffs than those in its tier is done with the intent of balance.

More importantly, the exact buffs given to any particular mech are going to matter a whole heck of a lot more than how many buffs it gets. For example, the double ROF buff on the DGN-1N is going to make it beastly with 2x AC5's, giving it about 4x AC5's worth of firepower. While the HBK-4H on the other hand is getting 2 AC10 buffs that will make its AC10 have the dps of an AC20 with better range. But will it really be worth gaining 2 tons but be forced to constantly stare straight at your target instead of twisting some damage into your arms?

In short, 2 20% buffs going to the 4H will at best barely improve its performance, while 2 25% buffs going to the 1N are going to nearly double its dps.

Also, since the ECM mechs are all mid-high tier anyways, their buffs will only be 5-15% buffs, so their overall performance isn't going to change much regardless of whether they get 1, 2, or 3 of them.



However, tier 5 mechs with JJ will be hurt a lot more by the decision as they'll be missing out on a 25% buff just because they carry JJ. While that seems entirely reasonable on ballistic boats (due to pinpoint front-loaded damage), chasses like the CPLT-C4 are going to be missing that buff while still getting very little to no use out of its jumpjets (because you don't use them on LRMs and SRMs are way to short ranged for that poptarting except in a very limited number of circumstances).

But again, which 25% buffs it gets will matter a lot more than how many it has total.

[Sorbic]

Void Angel, on 18 October 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

A contrary argument would be that ECM and Jump Jets are a force multiplier for any 'Mech that equips them, so you're getting more out of the quirks that you do get, even "missing" one. But time will tell, and remember - these are all subject to change in the future.

An interesting pitch but I don't see it panning out as being a force multiplier to quirks effectiveness. At least not in a lot of situations.

Like JJ's and the Jester which is set to get +15% LL range and -15% LL heat gen. Those buffs aren't enhancing it's abilities to get to any new places or be more agile. It's not going to help enhance the ability to stalk or flee. Once you get to that same hill (or whatever you would have used JJ's for) you're simply left with a couple 15% quirks.

Especially with quirks like the -15% heat quirk. A good chunk of the time when a Heavy is using JJ's after getting near the heat threshold it's to flee. Generally they will have either died, completely fled or greatly cooled down anyways.

[ShadowbaneX]

Whoops, on 18 October 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

My only real complaint at this moment is that you are "double dipping" penalties on ECM and JJ mechs. Possibly even triple dipping.

Recognize the role that the ECM and/or JJ's play in the mechs current tiering.

That's an interesting point. The Spider-5D is a decent mech, but it's listed as Tier 3. According to what Russ said, if JJs & ECM count as a perk does that means that it won't get any perks, or does that mean it's a Tier 5 mech, but the JJs & ECM take it up to Tier 3?

[Void Angel]

Heat reduction perks have been per weapon - which means that you can fire them more often before shutdown, obviously. Having jump jets/ECM always enhances your capability to use those weapons. Assumptions about how heavies or whatnot "usually" use jump jets are unconvincing. No matter how you theorycraft the flow of combat, the fact that you can get somewhere that another 'mech can't, and then use your -% heat weapons, multiplies the effectiveness of those weapons. Again, whether or not this will actually counteract the quirk handicap is difficult to predict - the emergent properties of player interaction with the system probably cannot be forcasted with any great degree of accuracy.

Edited by Void Angel, 18 October 2014 - 11:56 PM.

[Sorbic]

Void Angel, on 18 October 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

Heat reduction perks have been per weapon - which means that you can fire them more often before shutdown, obviously. Having jump jets/ECM always enhance your capability to use those weapons. Assumptions about how heavies or whatnot "usually" use jump jets are unconvincing. No matter how you theorycraft the flow of combat, the fact that you can get somewhere that another 'mech can't, and then use your -% heat weapons, multiplies the effectiveness of those weapons. Again, whether or not this will actually counteract the quirk handicap is difficult to predict - the emergent properties of player interaction with the system probably cannot be forcasted with any great degree of accuracy.

It's not so much theorycrafting as having watched a crud ton of mechs fight... and again, my point is that the placement of such mechs in their respective tiers was based off of them already getting to those places and you are left with the same quirk effect as a mech without JJ's.

I agree that quirks are something that we won't fully know the impact of until everythings implemented but (sticking with the Jester) if one thinks that just having JJ's is going to somehow make a 15% range and heat quirk equal other T3 quirks such as below. Well, they are kidding themselves.

Oxide basically gets 5 different buffs. *Unless the +4 legs is just Russ being confusing. Then they still get 4.
Jenner Oxide - Tier 3 Brawler

Structure Strength (LL&RL) +4
SRM/4 Range +15%
SRM/4 Cooldown +15%
SRM/4 Heat Gen -15%

Got rid of the negative movement quirks that existed.

---------------------------
4 separate buffs here
Atlas AS7-D - Tier 3 Brawler

Structure Strength (RT&LT) +11
AC/20 Velocity +15%
AC/20 Cooldown +15%
SRM/6 Range +15%


I guess one of the things I failed to convey is that it can't be an across the board assumption that something like lower heat will be equally beneficial to a mech with JJ's. For instance lower heat output would be more beneficial to a JJ CTF-3D as it has the chops to stand and brawl while the Jester cannot.

Edited by Sorbic, 18 October 2014 - 10:04 PM.

[Tezcatli]

Seems like there's quite a few passionate people against specialized quirks. If you, the devs, decide to give into the anti-specialization side. Might I suggest a compromise? Perhaps if you choose not to equip the specialized weapon. The specialized quirks disappear, replaced by generic quirks, though at a weaker percentage. Then at least they're still getting a few other bonuses for not specializing. Even if they already are.

Though personally I think we should wait and see how the quirks, as they've been presented so far, work out. If there's still an uproar over it once we've actually had a chance to try them out. Then maybe they can try out a compromise.

Edited by Tezcatli, 19 October 2014 - 08:31 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Sorbic, on 18 October 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

I guess one of the things I failed to convey is that it can't be an across the board assumption that something like lower heat will be equally beneficial to a mech with JJ's. For instance lower heat output would be more beneficial to a JJ CTF-3D as it has the chops to stand and brawl while the Jester cannot.

It's more complicated than that. You could as well argue that the CTF-3D gains less from lower heat output because it's able to mix hot energy weapons with cool running ballistics - it already has endurance, while the Jester is 100% limited by hot energy weapons under all circumstances.

[Sorbic]

Wintersdark, on 18 October 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

It's more complicated than that. You could as well argue that the CTF-3D gains less from lower heat output because it's able to mix hot energy weapons with cool running ballistics - it already has endurance, while the Jester is 100% limited by hot energy weapons under all circumstances.

3D's run hot and the Jester is often more limited by not being able to stay in a fight than by it's heat. Besides a fairly standard 2LL 4ML Jester has a heat management of 1.32 (my 3D is 1.28), can alpha 4 times in a row at daytime River City and start firing again in short order. Plus the Jester is capped at 2 JJ's so it's max jump distance is 9.7 vs the 3D's 18.1.

Of course either way we toss our arguments the outcome is the same. The mechs are different and an across the board policy for all JJ/ECM equipped mechs is flawed. Esp considering how many people run 0 or just 1 JJ.

[Void Angel]

Sorbic, on 18 October 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

It's not so much theorycrafting as having watched a crud ton of mechs fight... and again, my point is that the placement of such mechs in their respective tiers was based off of them already getting to those places and you are left with the same quirk effect as a mech without JJ's.

I guess one of the things I failed to convey is that it can't be an across the board assumption that something like lower heat will be equally beneficial to a mech with JJ's. For instance lower heat output would be more beneficial to a JJ CTF-3D as it has the chops to stand and brawl while the Jester cannot.

I hate to break it to you, but anecdotal "well, I've watched a lot of 'mechs fight," is far less convincing than theorycrafting. At least theory can come from representative data. Your personal experience, no matter how extensive, cannot be be a representative sample - and you might want to compare your join date to mine before you go too far down that rabbit hole.

Similarly, to say, "I agree that quirks are something that we won't fully know the impact of until everythings implemented but (sticking with the Jester) if one thinks that just having JJ's is going to somehow make a 15% range and heat quirk equal other T3 quirks such as below. Well, they are kidding themselves" isn't really addressing the point. The mere presence of jump jets and/or ECM has a huge effect on any variant. It can do things that other 'mechs cannot, and that makes these systems very useful. Making authoritative statements about whether this or that quirk will outweigh the different quirks given to other 'mechs requires you to have a level of predictive confidence that you can't reasonably have. You pay lip service to that uncertainty, then go right ahead and claim certainty in the same breath.

As I myself and others have tried repeatedly to tell you, it's more complicated than you're making it out to be - but you don't want to hear it. You say, "sure, sure, but" and then go right ahead repeating your original assertion. Sorry, but that doesn't cut the argumentative mustard where I'm from. Still, chasing after you to point you back to the argument you can't answer is a losing proposition at this point.

/unfollow

[skill gap]

Regarding the Centurion quirks...

Additional Armour (LA) +16
Additional Structure (RA) +16

These should be reversed. The right arm should have the extra armor to protect the weapons. Centurions are far too easy to disarm.

[9erRed]

Greetings,

Reference the Centurion.

- The shield arm gets the extra armour, requiring torso twisting to protect the upper chassis.
- The weapon arm gets the additional internal strength, as it should be. (you don't add armour to the weapon.)

Looks correct in it's assignment.

9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 19 October 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[Hoax415]

Lots of people ITT completely misunderstanding jump jets.

The #1 advantage of jj's is that they let you "jiggle" the hitboxes around. This makes having the ability to mount even 1 jj a huge buff to your ability to duel and generally spread damage even against good players.

All the maps where you can take more effective firing positions or outmaneuver people bc you have jj are just additional bonus.

The idea that JJ mechs are being screwed, especially with positive changes to how effective jets are coming in... seems quite premature.

Bront, on 17 October 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

While I agree with the Jester and Huggin, what about the Shadowhawk? Most only have 3 JJs stock. Same with many Highlanders. Where is the line for having too many?

It's an odd slope, particularly since JJs often put a mech in the teir it's in, but in many ways, JJs are worth more than a single quirk. It's Reduced falling damage, increased mobility, able to access areas other mechs can't, and damage spreading all rolled into one. Even 1 or 2. Remember, this is pass 1. I'm sure they'll have to tweak things a bit.

Listen to this guy people.

Macksheen, on 17 October 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

I am confused on the JJ thing....

So, Victors are T1 - no buffs for them. SHD are tier 2, but have JJ (which the victors also have) ... so no buffs for them either?

I'm not sure you need to go crazy with buffs anyway, just trying to follow the logic. If a SHD didn't have JJ, it wouldn't be in the tier it is in ... sure I'll buy that JJ is better than a quirk, but what's been said means that any T2 with JJ won't get a boost? Is that right?

Tier 2 Shadow Hawk would normally get TWO tier 2 value (so 10% for specific weapon quirks, 4% for most general weapon quirks) quirks. Having jump jets means that you only get ONE tier 2 value weapon quirk.

A tierX w/ JJ or tierX w/ ECM mech is not the same as a mech from one higher tier. Because which tier you are on sets what % value the weapon quirks are as well as how many.

Non-weapon quirks are determined on chassis by chassis basis.

Edited by Hoax415, 19 October 2014 - 08:26 AM.

[Sorbic]

Void Angel, on 19 October 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

I hate to break it to you, but anecdotal "well, I've watched a lot of 'mechs fight," is far less convincing than theorycrafting. At least theory can come from representative data. Your personal experience, no matter how extensive, cannot be be a representative sample - and you might want to compare your join date to mine before you go too far down that rabbit hole.

Similarly, to say, "I agree that quirks are something that we won't fully know the impact of until everythings implemented but (sticking with the Jester) if one thinks that just having JJ's is going to somehow make a 15% range and heat quirk equal other T3 quirks such as below. Well, they are kidding themselves" isn't really addressing the point. The mere presence of jump jets and/or ECM has a huge effect on any variant. It can do things that other 'mechs cannot, and that makes these systems very useful. Making authoritative statements about whether this or that quirk will outweigh the different quirks given to other 'mechs requires you to have a level of predictive confidence that you can't reasonably have. You pay lip service to that uncertainty, then go right ahead and claim certainty in the same breath.

As I myself and others have tried repeatedly to tell you, it's more complicated than you're making it out to be - but you don't want to hear it. You say, "sure, sure, but" and then go right ahead repeating your original assertion. Sorry, but that doesn't cut the argumentative mustard where I'm from. Still, chasing after you to point you back to the argument you can't answer is a losing proposition at this point.

/unfollow

"I hate to break it to you, but anecdotal [...] you might want to compare your join date to mine before you go too far down that rabbit hole. " Between this, your first response, and you looking up and then wielding my join date, what I hear is "I'm just going to continue offhandedly dismissing your arguments" I've played close to 6300 games since my JD and for a good while sought out Cat's to see if I could learn from others playstyle. Combined with theory-crafting I'm comfortable enough in at least presenting the argument even if the evidence is anecdotal. I would love to look at truly large sample but we can't so all we have is what we've seen/makes sense on playstyle AND how JJ's will impact quirks. Also, on the sample size topic, join date really doesn't mean a lot when you look at how much play styles have changed as the games progressed.

"You say, "sure, sure, but" and then go right ahead repeating your original assertion.. " It's called having a conversation in which parties disagree and I've expanded on said assertion while you just go on repeating the same thing.

If you read my comments with the intent to listen instead of respond you would have seen that I've been saying PGI should handle each mech individually instead of placing such a wide sweeping directive just because it has JJ's. I mean yes, the right quirk on the right ECM/JJ mech could have enough extra impact to warrant removing/reducing a quirk but an across the board rule is lacking. The J's max jump is rated at 9.7 which is less than/about half of most heavies. I can take a QD, Summoner, other Cat's... and easily hop from the water to the landing platform in River City. With the J I have to hug the wall/get up out of the water to jump up there and there's it's much slower rate of climb...

Edited by Sorbic, 19 October 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[ImperialKnight]

gumpy2k7, on 19 October 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

Regarding the Centurion quirks...

Additional Armour (LA) +16
Additional Structure (RA) +16

These should be reversed. The right arm should have the extra armor to protect the weapons. Centurions are far too easy to disarm.

if your weapon arm is taking damage, you're doing it wrong

[GroovYChickeN]

So i'm not sure if this has been said yet but I'm not going to read 27 pages worth of stuff.

I would like to see more quirks that don't just adjust stats right out.

I think you should add things like "if x number of a jump jets are equipped, then some buff is applied" or "if less (or more if you want) than x number of y weapon are equipped, then some buff or nerf". You could even do things like " If engine is XL or STD" or "if heatsinks are 1x".

This would allow for him very creative ways to fix problem builds on specific mechs without nerfing every mech that carries said load out (like ppc stalkers). Maybe then we could then remove or reduce the "Ghost Heat" that so many people hate (I don't mind ghost heat).

[Felio]

SRM range (like on the Jenner D) is kind of a joke. It's difficult enough to hit at 270m.

That's Sarah's Jenner, so you should probably give it something she'd use, anyway. Didn't she use streaks with 4 ML?

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Just don't touch the AWS 9M! The quirks for it are perfect as is.

[LooseGoose7]

The Ember needs to be buffed. Hit boxes could probably get smaller, JJs could be more efficient and it could get better heat dissipation..............

[Golden Vulf]

Some things that are color coded together might be "quirk packages" or things that only a particular class of mech might get. or maybe they just like pretty colors.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 20 October 2014 - 12:13 AM.

[Chuck Jager]

As a 2-3 weeks duration very new player whose first purchase was the CAT bundle, after finishing the basics and getting the proper canned builds I will say I have never ever trade my jump jets for for anything and would happily void any buffs for JJ on my K2. I never pop tarted, but without reading anything it was easy to "feel" how even 1 jj affected survivability and rate of turn - I later read how this is a problem that they are having a hard time fixing.

SO my point is whether by intentional design or "exploiting" a "BUG", I am happy that I have learned to jump turn and spread damage and easily see where that has buffed my game play by more than 15% in any area.

NOTE concerning game programming issues:
I have done a lot of Web design/management and some programming and our teams are always hit by "ghost lag" in systems and how it changes what "some" users experience. Real time online games have exponentially more factors affecting and causing issues that are present but are hard to identify and fix. We all should know that hits are not always recorded properly and PGI may be able to identify some of the reasons why. Trust me it is not always possible to fix these issues without introducing even worse. SO if you want to put your tin foil hats on you could see this and the the black helicopters as confirmation that the Jump turn damage spread "is" modeled falsely due to the current mechanics some of which may be outside of PGIs control. PGI would neither confirm or deny this, but if it is ever fixed everybody and their brother will claim it is the "worst" nerf ever.