111 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

Cavale, on 01 October 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Except I'd buy more HEROS if I COULD AFFORD THE BASIC CHASSIS TO SEE IF I LIKE IT.

Literally two months to grind out for the 3 Summoners with a hero Mech. TWO MONTHS. Like, how many people could you get to play this game if you told them it'd take them two months to get all three Summoners IF they put money into the game, OR played more than ten hours a week? Because so far my net number of friends, even hardcore BT fellows, who've stuck with the game is ZERO. I:

Perhaps a starting point with the Cadet funds, something below a well known expensive Clan Mech, and a Heavy at that, would make things a tad less stressful. NO! You wanted a Clan Heavy right off? Guess what? They are expansive Mechs. There are many LESS expansive chassis that can be tweaked with Bells and Whistles that do not take 3 months.

I know, I own 7 Mechs, all bought and outfitted, 6 of which are Heavies. I am working on Clan Mechs currently. Staring at your C-Bill pile is like watching a Clock. Both never go fast enough. Just play the game. The rest will take care of itself.

[Soul Tribunal]

I think people are confusing this with making the game 'too easy'. This is not the case (but like anything else on the internet forums, people want to see what they want to see regardless of what it actually is).

This is a matter of making some things a little more obtainable, thus allowing for a better chance to keep both sides of the population in check. The more people you can keep in total the better the game will end up being. The problem with the cost of items and the credits earned is it makes the game initially more of a brick wall than it should for new players.
See, in WoWP and WoT, while they are grindy, they are not nearly as bad as this for one good reason. Their 'Tier Costs' are propotional to what tier you are in.
So a new player does not need a ton of XP or Credits 'Initially' to get things that are fully upgraded or 'a little better' than what they have, so said player feels like he is advancing. Sure, once you hit the higher tiers it is a grind and requires premium usually. Which I their business model, and it works for them. WoT is a great succsess with 40K players on 2 NA server groups most times.
The issue here is, be it a 20ton mech or 100 ton mech, that engine upgrade costs more than the machine. Its not liner in the same way and while those of us who understand this can in a sense deal with it, we need new blood for any MMORPG to be successful. A Re-evaluation of this would probably help, a lot.

-ST

[Joseph Mallan]

Torgun, on 02 October 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

One man's medium is another man's grind. It all depends on how much time you got on your hands.

Grind is grind. Whether you have fun is different. It was a blast playing along side the Law and less so playing solo. Kinda like playing a PvE video game. The game isn't as fun alone as it is with yer friends. I can sit and tell you stories for Hours about the antics and adventures of some of my long run D&D Characters, AND TT Pilots. Joseph Mallan was my first CBT Character ever, I have played him off and on for 28 years. What is a week of grinding to playing the same character/Mech for 30 years? Well to be honest on TT Joe changed from a Battlemaster to a Flashman to a Thunder hawk over those 30 years.

As for time on you hands... you have a lifetime sir, don't rush it or you'll miss the story.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Grinding...all part of the fun.

I get the feeling that some of these players (probably mostly the kids) would HATE to play the old RPGs I played as a kid.

"What?!? How long do I need to kill the same monster in the same forrest to be skilled enough to beat the level boss? Forget that crap...Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, etc... Sucks!

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 02 October 2014 - 07:09 AM.

[JackkyChan]

Grinding...all part of the fun.

MeiSoo I loved playing World Of Warcraft when I first came out I remember walking down the road in GoldShire and being eaten alive at level 1 because I strayed away from the training grounds thinking my character was so BAD ASSSS.Games have changed WOW now is a watered down sissy game compared to the original version.

I came to try MWO out for its depth of play and tactics cool looking mechs and fun social interactions plus the role-play of a Clan Warrior.But what I found so far is a shallow grinding type game with limited social options and a UI that is cumbersome.Battles don't last long the mechs die so easy and gaining C-bills and skills are over the top.

I have a friend that played MWO and before that the old mechwarrior games I met on a ts3 channel link but PGI banned him now so he wont play.So this game is losing its luster real fast the shine of all the new mechs Is fading for me.I had my friend to play and chat with on coms but he is gone now so I don't like to play as much.

But even a 20% increase in C-bills would help

Edited by JackkyChan, 02 October 2014 - 07:25 AM.

[Soul Tribunal]

The 'Back in the day' stuff has no bearing. And the sole reason for that is society has changed, people have change, and the philosophies have changed.
I remember them all. I remember killing quite possibly 1000 blue/red slimes in Dragon Quest just to get to be a high enough level.
But that was then. You cannot use the Metric for success on games from 20 years ago, it doesn't work like that anymore. You need immersion , variety, interactiveness. Repetition is good, but only in the correct dose to create success.

Not saying WG has it perfect, but their model is a much better representation of what we need vs what we have when it comes to progression.
I could write out the whole idea that I have but I don't have the time at the moment.
My only key point is what was, no longer is, and it is up to the companies to get the right metric to keep their population.

-ST

[MeiSooHaityu]

JackkyChan, on 02 October 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

Grinding...all part of the fun.

MeiSoo I loved playing World Of Warcraft when I first came out I remember walking down the road in GoldShire and being eaten alive at level 1 because I strayed away from the training grounds thinking my character was so BAD ASSSS.Games have changed WOW now is a watered down sissy game compared to the original version.

I came to try MWO out for its depth of play and tactics cool looking mechs and fun social interactions plus the role-play of a Clan Warrior.But what I found so far is a shallow grinding type game with limited social options and a UI that is cumbersome.Battles don't last long the mechs die so easy and gaining C-bills and skills are over the top.

I have a friend that played MWO and before that the old mechwarrior games I met on a ts3 channel link but PGI banned him now so he wont play.So this game is losing its luster real fast the shine of all the new mechs Is fading for me.I had my friend to play and chat with on coms but he is gone now so I don't like to play as much.

But even a 20% increase in C-bills would help

I've heard that about WoW from more than one person. I never got into WoW so I couldn't say one way or another. The last MMORPG I was involved in was probably the first one, Ultima Online. Once I realized how much time vampires they could be, I decided to avoid them.

Yes, grinding in this game takes time, but I can play a couple matches here...couple there. In Utima, everything seemed to take hours before I was really in a position to quit for the day.

In anycase, I am just saying that the old RPGs didn't think twice about making you fight slimes for 2 hours to level up 3 or 4 times so a level boss wouldn't hand you your rear end. I'm not saying I agree with that game design, but we did it anyway and still enjoyed the experience and te reward for a good fight.

This game may lack the content it needs at this point, but CW is getting closer, so we will have to see what it brings to the table.

In any case, we used to grind for seemingly less and didn't complain quite as much. Then again, many newer players aren't used to not having some sort of instant gratification tied to a game. It's fine to get that type of experience (especially from a standard release title), but it just doesn't happen in a F2P game.

Remember though, PGI also wants you to bypass the grind and they have no probleml selling you the means to do it.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Soul Tribunal, on 02 October 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

The 'Back in the day' stuff has no bearing. And the sole reason for that is society has changed, people have change, and the philosophies have changed.
I remember them all. I remember killing quite possibly 1000 blue/red slimes in Dragon Quest just to get to be a high enough level.
But that was then. You cannot use the Metric for success on games from 20 years ago, it doesn't work like that anymore. You need immersion , variety, interactiveness. Repetition is good, but only in the correct dose to create success.

Not saying WG has it perfect, but their model is a much better representation of what we need vs what we have when it comes to progression.
I could write out the whole idea that I have but I don't have the time at the moment.
My only key point is what was, no longer is, and it is up to the companies to get the right metric to keep their population.

-ST

I agree about needing content to immerse a player. All good games that have legs need that. Let's hope once Community Warfare is the start of that.

As for the gaming metric of grinding, it may be 30+ years old, but it is making a comeback in the world of F2P. Is it bad, yea sort of (hence why it was almost gone a few years ago).

Thing is, the mobile game market makes tons of money off of F2P games. Those gamed revived the intensive grind (or wait to play) so they can sell boosters and add-ons to bypass that grind. Grinding now defines many F2P titles.

Sadly, this game model isn't going away. To me, PGI and MWO is actually somewhat moderate and fair IMO. Games like the new Dungeon Keeper or that new Star Trek mobile game are SO bad, they become unplayable after a point.

I know its a dated concept to grind, and I didn't miss it much, but I seem to have some tolerance for it. Since some newer players may not be (because it was previously a dated and retired metric), they might be having a bigger issue with it.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 02 October 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[Soul Tribunal]

The Bigger point I was trying to make in my post MeiSooHaityu was that it needs to be more of a 'progressive' grind than the type we have now.
Remember, for myself I don't care, I am not speaking in this particular case on account of my own desires. The reason for most of my posting comes from players whom have joined MWO through a Website I run, and leave their feedback for me about it.
Where we run into issues with MWO is, once you finally save all that money for your first own mech, the COO (Cost of ownership)is double or triple the mech purchase price. Its a blunt wall for new players to overcome.
Other games this is more gradual. With Tier relating to cost/XP required. You still need to grind, but you are gradually put into that situation, not thrown in.

And, I am not saying that the model of repetition is bad, its actually needed for many players to become better (like myself). But it is the level,

-ST

[Brizna]

I think it depends a lot on how much you play. I have friends who get to play 4-5 hours a week, at that rate saving up for DWF really looks crazy. On the other hand if you enjoy the game and can get to play longer money isn't a reall issue.

So to help the casuals hae an easier ride in the game a CBill bonus for the first X matches of the day could be implmented. It could be a fixed bonus like 50K Cbill per match or a +50% on top of hero and premium.

[Joseph Mallan]

Soul Tribunal, on 02 October 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

The 'Back in the day' stuff has no bearing. And the sole reason for that is society has changed, people have change, and the philosophies have changed.
I remember them all. I remember killing quite possibly 1000 blue/red slimes in Dragon Quest just to get to be a high enough level.
But that was then. You cannot use the Metric for success on games from 20 years ago, it doesn't work like that anymore. You need immersion , variety, interactiveness. Repetition is good, but only in the correct dose to create success.

Not saying WG has it perfect, but their model is a much better representation of what we need vs what we have when it comes to progression.
I could write out the whole idea that I have but I don't have the time at the moment.
My only key point is what was, no longer is, and it is up to the companies to get the right metric to keep their population.

-ST

See now this would have some baring IF those of us from back in the day were not here playing today. Listening to my Cousin regale me with stories of Nam was quite different then my 1st Sgt giving me the dope in the 80s!

Once I am no longer playing a CBT affiliated game that's when you can tell me my voice has no say.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 02 October 2014 - 08:39 AM.

[Soul Tribunal]

I was talking on a Business perspective Joseph , not as a direct affront to you. If you took it that way, then sorry but that was not how it was intended.
I receive due to what I do in my own time, quite a bit of feedback on a lot of titles. And, I too am from those days, I'll swap your stories of Nam with mine of Crotia and de-mining that place if you want to kick back and chat.

The point I was trying to emphasize was what made something successful at a set point in time does not = success at a later point. You need to design your game around the core credentials of what is successful here and now.
I am not saying remove the grind, I am saying they need to adapt it to suit 'all' player types.

-ST