31 replies to this topic

[Tezcatli]

It would be especially interesting if your faction had to control the planet those companies are located on. To purchase them.

[Kaemon]

We should probably trot out the old closed BETA threads, we had miles of stuff like this when we were still excitied about the potential of this game.

[Livewyr]

Kaemon, on 01 October 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

We should probably trot out the old closed BETA threads, we had miles of stuff like this when we were still excitied about the potential of this game.

I am working on it, gentlemen, my excitement has been rekindled a bit by the more recent actions of PGI so I see the potential beginning to return.

However, I am also writing a thesis, running a Forest Ecology lab, working, and doing GIS projects.. I could use some help in the "Good thread resurrection" department.

[Thragen]

There's another way to sorta implement weapon manufacture variants. You could just create a quirk line "Martell Medium Lasers" and apply it to the variant that the lore indicates used that particular weapon. So, if according to lore, a variant used Martell medium lasers, then any medium laser used on that variant would be considered a Martell medium laser and the quirk bonuses apply. In this way, PGI doesn't have to go off and create a bunch of new items. They can just integrate weapon variants into their quirk system that they are currently working on.

[Malleus011]

I'd like a system like this to replace the current weapon module system.

[xeromynd]

Since there really aren't too many viable weapons in the BT universe aside from the ones we have now (except Artillery Pieces, Rockets, and MRMs, maybe Rifles). I think manufacturer variants of weapons would be AMAZING, and allow for pretty awesome customization.

Edited by xeromynd, 02 October 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[Mothykins]

I dislike it, because it opens up even more Min/Max Shenanigans.

I Like it, Because it's a nifty Idea.

[Koniving]

Livewyr, on 01 October 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

As mentioned before: Manufacture specific weapon variants.
So on, so forth. Out of time, might complete later.

Not quite how I would do them, but glad to see I'm not the only one interested in them.

Creating genuine lore-friendly variants is unfortunately difficult with network limitations and the "3 times or greater" firing rates of most weapons (example: ML in tabletop is 3 heat, 5 damage in 10 seconds. ML in MWO is 12 heat and 15 damage in 9 seconds).

Now, this isn't to say it is completely impossible. After all this old vid was easy enough to do.

It's not 100% accurate with the lore of what I was recreating but at the time I worked with what was on a photoshopped image (seen in the video).

Sadly what I would want to do can't be done as is, MWO would have to return to the roots it claimed to have.
On the other hand... if the game was balanced to the 10 second rule and from there the weapons extrapolated from the books.. you'd have an Atlas K with ER Large Lasers (which are often described as being 1 to 5 shots to a "Rating"; this particular ER LL is the Victory Nickel Alloy Extended-Range Large Laser which is a 2 shot per rating) dealing 4 damage for 6 heat per shot per laser (so it'll never hit that 50% mark on a single shot) and a Shigunga LRM-20 Rack that fires 20 missiles at once, while you'd have an Atlas D whose rapid-reload FarFire Maxi-Rack LRM-20 only fires 5 missiles at a time for 4 salvos across 10 seconds with a 100mm AC/20 that fires 16 shots to do 20 damage (with all 100mm ACs being consistent at 4 shots for 5 damage, 8 shots for 10) and an Atlas RS with an AC/10 that fires 6 shots to do 10 damage at 120mm. (In other words the D's AC/20 is DPS oriented where in comparison the RS's AC/10 is more front loaded). The Atlas K would have value in being the only Atlas to go to for real LRM firepower if you needed that all or nothing shot. Also in being the most front loaded damage of all the Atlases, with the problem of all weapons (aside from the Gauss) being too hot for close range combat and the Gauss itself can only fire once every 10 seconds. Meanwhile an Atlas D has far more DPS style weapons but the SRM rack in the upper shoulder can lay down the heavy hitters. Of course the Atlas shines best when in melee.

A Crusher Super Heavy can spam out 10 shots to get 20 damage, meanwhile the Hunchback 4G's Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20 at 180mm deals 20 damage in a fast but not as fast 5 round burst.

Not to mention my all time favorite medium laser, the Rassal Blue Beam. A standard medium laser variant that is rare due to its problems but sought for the same reasons. Excessive heat generation from a poor cooling jacket. EM Interference partially disabling sensors and electronics on board the user's mech (including ECM). A charge up time. Yet, it is the most front loaded medium laser in the Inner Sphere arsenal with the longest cooldown and the most upfront heat climb. A beam so powerful that it generates a blue-colored laser. Its stats? 5 damage "in the blink of an eye after a warning of smoke, vibration in the arm it is attached to and a whine that will make your ears bleed!" Of course, in the same lore an Atlas has 304 armor instead of 608.

Now, if that is the most frontloaded laser to exist with its 8.6 second cooldown to exist in the Inner Sphere arsenal, then imagine what the typical laser is dealing for damage?

After that, the lowest caliber AC damage of 0.2 damage per bullet to the highest (IS) caliber I've found which is generating 5 damage per shot (AC/20; Chemjet Gun)...seems to make a bit more sense. Especially stock loadouts where an SRM-2 is not only considered a valid means of defense but is also a somewhat effective means of defense even in tabletop (as missiles are among Battletech's only use to ammo count weapons; most of Battletech's weapons are 'use allotment' rather than ammo count. As the strongest example of this, Battletech MGs fire between 500 and 4000 RPM. Using that smallest number, 500 rounds in 1 minute requires 83.33333333333333 rounds per 10 seconds (a turn). Yet it only uses "1". Meanwhile a mech that has the big 4,000 round per minute MG should be shooting 666.6666666666667 rounds per 10 seconds... but again only uses 1, and that "one" 12.5 to 25mm bullet deals 1 to 3 damage (depending on the rules and the 'style' of hit you acquire) and is capable of doing multiple crits; something that shouldn't be possible for a single bullet that at best is like this.


and can easily be similar to this. (To note: In the first video there the 50 caliber fired is 12.7mm, slightly bigger than the lighter end of the typical MG in Battletech which is 12.5mm).

This had some good variety too.

To note: 25mm to 30mm are the smallest "class 2 autocannon" calibers in Battletech. The 30mm is specifically stated to be 10 shots for 2 damage or 0.2 damage per shot. The 40mm is 0.25 damage and 8 shots for 2 damage, it is also the minimum size for class 5 autocannons which is 20 shots. 90mm is Battletech's listed top caliber for AC/2s. An 80mm is 4 shots for 2 damage and 10 shots for 5 damage (Rifleman and Shadowhawk both sport 80mm AC/5 variants). 120mm is typically the high end for 5 and 10 class ACs. The Pontiac 100 is an AC/20 that fires 100 shots. Now, 20 damage / 100 = 0.2 damage per shot. So what caliber is that? 30mm.

I should add that range restrictions are related to heavy recoil and not "lack of gun powder." It's the recoil of puking up so many sabot-encased rounds that cause the restrictions in range. The DPS style ACs are chain-fed which is steady but not as rapid as they could be. The burst fire style ones are cassette (magazine) fed, where the time between bursts is spent swapping magazines/cassettes.

With this its easy to create variants. Of course there's no denying that unless similar treatments are done to Gauss Rifles and PPCs, they would be the most powerful yet slowest-firing things in Battletech.

Pretty easy, here, too. There are more than 18 variants of Gauss Rifle.
One example, the Myrdron Concussor... is a specially designed post-Jihad Gauss Rifle variant under the typical Gauss Rifle classification of 15 damage in one turn... described as a needler gun that expends 6 rounds per firing cycle on a recoil-less platform.

Of course, changing shot counts to do X damage in 10 seconds isn't the only way to do it. Projectile speeds, recoil levels, reload styles, individual weapon quirks, accuracy and convergence speeds, and weapon ratings are described as "loose" so more spammy DPS builds could get the 'Clan' treatment where if it takes a lot of fire to get X damage, you might have a total of X damage+some incentive (for example the Pontiac 100 dealing 100 shots is a bit rediculous even if it's an incredibly short burst followed by a long reload. Or a low caliber MG that takes lots of bullets as opposed to a high caliber MG that takes fewer).

In general the list expands quite a bit. Specific to PPCs, some of them could be more focused than others (less likely to 'spread' their damage but thusly narrower so the actual hit at range is more difficult). Since PPCs are canon as having a charge-up time, one PPC might be more front-loaded in heat in exchange for a quicker tap-to-charge up. Another PPC might spread its heat buildup over an extremely manageable span of time but the chargeup might be a bit slower. One in particular called the Lord's Light is duly named for its 3 second prime in which the emitter in the barrel glows blindingly bright to the point that someone on the receiving end cannot stare at it, a light described as brighter than the sun; it literally takes 3 seconds of building energy before it fires to do 10 damage (note the typical 20 ton light mech has 8 armor and 4 structure on the leg and you could in theory fire 2 of them safely due to the spread of heat and heat dissipation). Then again, you can always flip off the field inhibitor to remove most of the chargeup time at your own risk.

ER PPCs are such that they have a significantly lower charge up time, and thus would ready and fire faster at the expense of their higher heat generation.

But back to variants... Just imagine of my Hermes 300 engine did something different than your VLAR 300 engine?
What if my jumpjets were better at forward movement, while yours better are vertical movement? What if mine was better for in-flight manuevers while yours could get you up in the air quickly to dodge those incoming missiles with just barely enough left over to cushion your fall.

Now what if the variants were tied to other things, like brands of mechs or factions or even to hardpoint styles.

Now...I ask you the saddest question of all:

What if people actually wanted variety? Because sadly it seems that some people don't.

Spoiler

Though at the same time, I'm not sure if I trust PGI with variants. Besides, the mech quirks will essentially give us some variations. If one Dragon gets an AC/2 firing bonus while another gets an AC/10 firing bonus, those would be different than the typical ACs and exclusive to those variants.

Of course, with the variants above I'd do 1x armor/structure and would have more than just mechs. War Thunder while far from perfect has a solid idea with AI + player driven forces on both sides. Now imagine AI infantry and vehicles where a player with a Command Console, provided both pilot and commander are conscious, could direct the AI forces. Imagine if infantry could hide in buildings and use shoulder-mounted SRM launchers to shoot you?

Also imagine mechs are appropriately sized with the canon where an Atlas is 13 meters and a Dire Wolf is 12.3 meters....I say this because the MWO Hunchback is 13.3 meters and the Centurion is 14.7 meters... when the tallest Battlemech of 100 tons or fewer in the year 3050 was the 95 ton Executioner at 14.4 meters tall which was considered a "towering giant that dwarfed the Atlas."

But then again... so many things...most of them will never be fixed.

[Kaemon]

So while I am in favor of these types of changes, I think where people start to complain is that the general feeling of the game now is arcade first, and most of these changes start more down the road of 'mech sim' or adding depth that now 2 years in, people who are used to the status quo aren't down with.

Basically you've lost the majority of the mech sim people already, and if you change to more of a mech sim style, you run the risk of losing your arcade WoT shoot em up crowd as well, which leaves you with a game that tries to ride the line of both (arcadey sim) and does neither particularly well.

That may be more dangerous to the health of the game, than continuing down the 'it's an arcade shooter with hints of Mechwarrior' since we're been paving (or at least walking) down this road for quite awhile now.

Honestly at this point I'd probably rather see this quirk system into an episodic or single player MW5, or planned for that, rather than try to reinvent this one.

Also to really make this work, I would make Clan Warfare IS mechs stock variants only (just have more variants), and give clan tech the IS customization we have now.

We acknowledge that clan mechs are superior, create stars instead of lances for them (so they fight at a disadvantage), and they start with zero planets (i.e. no manufacturing or loyalty points) so they have an uphill fight to establish a foothold and keep it.

That's the point of clans, that's the historical context they came in, and they're (eventually) supposed to lose.

If you want to incorporate weapon system quirks then, you can use them on specific locked variants of IS mechs, and fine tune INDIVIDUAL MECHS (not weapons across the board) to allow sway backs, 12 MG atlai, etc... without breaking balance in the game.

Leave the pew pew pug queue the way it is, (actually make it more squishy and higher rewards to entice new players, they should have all mechs and cheap camo colors/ etc...) and use Clan Warfare to make your money (have to buy mech packs, resources, etc...).

This has always been a Whale centric financial module, keep it that way, get rid of this abhorrent new player pug queue cash grind, give them the easy path, move the $ to CW, and build it with all the suggestions above.

Just a thought.

Edited by Kaemon, 05 October 2014 - 06:14 AM.

[Alek Ituin]

I want this so badly.

Weapon variants would add sooooooooooo much flavor to this game.

[EvilCow]

This has been proposed since the closed beta, modules are what we got instead.

The added depth was a clear risk for some newb drowning.

[Kaemon]

Also mech packs are a terrible idea, but imagine stock mech packs for cheap, and buying individual clan mechs, then you get the best of both worlds (monthly single mechs, bi-monthly or sllightly longer IS stock mech packs).

Get rid of trial mechs, allow new players to use ANY mech up to a certain amount of games (with full customization) start to instill that pug queue is only training for Com Warfare, not the end game...