Mods & Math
#1
Posted 01 October 2014 - 07:47 PM
Firing reduction of 10% + Firing reduction of 12% as an example...
Do both reductions reduce from the weapons original cool down or does it apply one first and then apply the second after the cool down has already been modified? Because if it's the latter that's not nearly as impactful...
Jazz
#2
Posted 01 October 2014 - 09:41 PM
I nyow, nyow
Edited by CocoaJin, 01 October 2014 - 10:41 PM.
#3
Posted 01 October 2014 - 09:52 PM
I figure that once it's cleaned up, we'll get an update in a Patch Notes or a Command Chair post.
#4
Posted 02 October 2014 - 02:38 AM
Jazz Hands, on 01 October 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:
Firing reduction of 10% + Firing reduction of 12% as an example...
Do both reductions reduce from the weapons original cool down or does it apply one first and then apply the second after the cool down has already been modified? Because if it's the latter that's not nearly as impactful...
Jazz
It is unclear at all.
because it depens how you do the math. many games use them as sum of multipliers compared to the base.
like: +12% and another 10% making 22%. or in math (0,12 +0,1)*basetime. (or for cooldowns it would be 1-0,12-0,1)
differnt is it when you ave stuff like this: first you use one multiplier: 1*0,88= 0,88 andapply that next multiplier on this number. then its 0,88*0,9 making this 0,792. which is then not a whole 22%.
So only PGI knows how its coded and which math applies or even a mix of it.
#5
Posted 02 October 2014 - 03:29 AM
I would put my money on pther modificationsquirks to all be additive(stack) and not cumulative.
#6
Posted 02 October 2014 - 03:55 AM
This and the fact that range buffs are also additive suggests that any given attacking bonus is more likely to be additive than multiplicative.
#7
Posted 02 October 2014 - 04:03 AM
Jazz Hands, on 01 October 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:
Firing reduction of 10% + Firing reduction of 12% as an example...
Do both reductions reduce from the weapons original cool down or does it apply one first and then apply the second after the cool down has already been modified? Because if it's the latter that's not nearly as impactful...
Jazz
It's a convoluted system that can confuse.
The most intelligent way to do it is to take the percentage changes and add/subtract them.
Example random mech B has a quirk, an elite skill and a penalty.
The quirk is a faster firing rate of 10%.
The elite skill is Fast Fire which gives 5% additional firing rate.
The penalty, for holding more hardpoints than is deemed acceptable, is a loss of 7.5% firing rate for said weapon.
The elite skill affects all weapons. The quirk and penalty affect the same weapon.
The weapon: medium laser with 3 second cooldown and 1 second beamtime. (4 seconds between shots; but only the cooldown is modified).
Positives: -10% cooldown, -5% cooldown
Negatives: +7.5% cooldown
The cooldown is 3 seconds.
The tally of quirks/penalties is 0 -10 - 5 + 7.5 = -7.5%
3 seconds - 7.5% = 2.775 cooldown.
2.775 cooldown + 1 second beam time (medium laser)= 3.775 seconds between trigger pulls / mouse clicks / firing cycles.
Now if the quirk shortened the beam time... then you'd have a change to the beam time and then combine with the cooldown.
One way to find out is to use this. The percentages here are done the same way that PGI is doing all percentages.
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/
#8
Posted 02 October 2014 - 04:20 AM
Praetor Knight, on 01 October 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:
I figure that once it's cleaned up, we'll get an update in a Patch Notes or a Command Chair post.
my guess is it pgi math fail, or not doing how they want it too. let take a random time of 3 sec if u do 3*.9*.88=2.376 if u get the bonus added togeather math should be 3*(.78)=2.34 profit. GW1 ****** up by doing it the frist way too, but in there u could get 10 things stacked on u with many decreases bonuses.
#9
Posted 02 October 2014 - 09:12 AM
With the ability for customization in a game, information is pretty paramount.
Jazz
#10
Posted 02 October 2014 - 10:49 AM
Koniving, on 02 October 2014 - 04:03 AM, said:
It's a convoluted system that can confuse.
The most intelligent way to do it is to take the percentage changes and add/subtract them.
Example random mech B has a quirk, an elite skill and a penalty.
The quirk is a faster firing rate of 10%.
The elite skill is Fast Fire which gives 5% additional firing rate.
The penalty, for holding more hardpoints than is deemed acceptable, is a loss of 7.5% firing rate for said weapon.
The elite skill affects all weapons. The quirk and penalty affect the same weapon.
The weapon: medium laser with 3 second cooldown and 1 second beamtime. (4 seconds between shots; but only the cooldown is modified).
Positives: -10% cooldown, -5% cooldown
Negatives: +7.5% cooldown
The cooldown is 3 seconds.
The tally of quirks/penalties is 0 -10 - 5 + 7.5 = -7.5%
3 seconds - 7.5% = 2.775 cooldown.
2.775 cooldown + 1 second beam time (medium laser)= 3.775 seconds between trigger pulls / mouse clicks / firing cycles.
Now if the quirk shortened the beam time... then you'd have a change to the beam time and then combine with the cooldown.
One way to find out is to use this. The percentages here are done the same way that PGI is doing all percentages.
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/
While this method is easier to figure out the number for the "bonus", it runs into a pretty significant problem: percentage points become increasingly effective as you move further away from zero.
Say you've got an instant-fire weapon that does 10 DPS. A -10% cooldown module bumps this up to (1/0.9)*10 = 11.1 DPS. That's a 11% bonus to DPS. Add a -10% cooldown quirk, and you're looking at (1/0.8)*10 = 12.5 DPS. So with your 20% cooldown reduction, you've totaled up to a 25% bonus to DPS. Taking this to an extreme, a -90% cooldown would give you a DPS of 100 (10x as much as the original - a 900% bonus).
The reverse is also true, in that the penalty gets lessened as you increase the penalty. A +10% cooldown quirk lowers your DPS to (1/1.1)*10 = 9.1 DPS, which is a 9% penalty. Add in another 10% cooldown quirk and you're looking at (1/1.2)*10 = 8.3 DPS, which is a 17% penalty. Taking this to an extreme, a +90% cooldown would give you a DPS of 5.3, which is a 47% reduction.
On the other hand, we can look at a different way of adding the bonuses together, and multiply them.
- As above, say you've got 2 bonuses giving -10% cooldown. After the first bonus, you get an 11% bonus to your DPS, just like before. After the second bonus, you get another 11% bonus on top of that. Your resulting DPS ends up being 12.34, which is a 23% bonus overall. This isn't that much different than adding them.
- Let's say you've got 9 bonuses, each giving -10% cooldown. Your DPS ends up being 25.8, which is a 158% bonus.
- In the reverse, you've got two 10% penalties. The total penalty is 17.3%, similar to before.
- Now you've got 9x 10% penalties. The total penalty is -58%.
What advantages does this method have?
- Big bonuses are worth more than multiple small ones. This means that mechs that have a single giant bonus (say, a Hunchback with -30% cooldown on AC/20) can't be made obsolete by using a superior chassis with multiple small bonuses (modules)
- Big penalties are worth less than multiple small ones. If you have a mech that has +5% energy cooldown in 4 different parts, you end up with a greater penalty than using 2 parts with 10% penalty each.
#11
Posted 02 October 2014 - 11:27 AM
Then you can add an arbitrarily large number of bonuses together without it getting degenerate.
Don't know if MWO uses that.
Edited by terrycloth, 02 October 2014 - 11:28 AM.
#12
Posted 02 October 2014 - 11:37 AM
+12% means x1,12
+10% means x 1,10
so no matter 100*1,12*1,10 or 100*1,10*1,12
#13
Posted 09 October 2014 - 04:27 PM
#14
Posted 26 October 2014 - 03:48 PM
#15
Posted 26 October 2014 - 03:53 PM
Jazz Hands, on 01 October 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:
Firing reduction of 10% + Firing reduction of 12% as an example...
Do both reductions reduce from the weapons original cool down or does it apply one first and then apply the second after the cool down has already been modified? Because if it's the latter that's not nearly as impactful...
Jazz
Somewhere Russ said it stacks, so it would be 22% reduction.
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