72 replies to this topic

[Moppelkotze]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 22 November 2011 - 06:03 AM, said:

A Heavy Small Laser does more damage than an IS Medium Laser, btw. xD
Same damage as an IS Pulse Laser.
Then again, we're comparing IS tech with ClanTech here.

Well I wanted to keep within the 'class'. So compare medium beam with large beam and medium pulse with large pulse
and heavy medium with large medium.
I don't mind a medium beam laser that does the damage of a large pulse laser
because although they are lasers they are different types that work in different ways.
And because we already got different types I see no need in splitting that into 100 subpieces.

That would also make playing much harder as you would have to learn the specs of every manufacturer.
A medium beam laser is a medium beam laser and should allways work as expected.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

wait, does this mean I'd have to pay a premium for Luxor-D A\C10's and their arm mounts?
my tech told me that no one makes those mounts for a CN9-A anymore and I just got my Luxor
D shot off last mission....crap

[Hollister]

Im going to use the stat system I had laser to explain how something like this could change how a laser would work. With heat not being changed, and the four that is are, range, accuracy, recharge time, damage.

A medium laser does 5 damage, 3 heat, and 270 meter range, and lets say 3 second recharge time since I do not have a base to go off of for that. I am going by memory for these, correct me if I am wrong.

Lets say each point into damage that is added or subtracted is .2 actual damage so max damage would be 6, with 4 being on the low end. Each point into range would be 20 meters so 170 meters low end and 370 meters high end. recharge would be .2 seconds so low end would be 4 seconds and high end would be 2 seconds.

So with a laser with stats of 7 dmg, 3 range, 3 acc, 7 recharge. This equals a medium laser that does 5.4 damage, has 230 meter range, less accuracy, and a recharge time of 2.6 seconds. while this laser could do more damage on paper if in range, it would be easyer to out range such said laser and take no damage. The counter to this laser would be a laser with stats like this.

3 damage, 8 range, 7 accuracy, 2 recharge time. this laser would do 4.6 damage, have 330 meter range, better accuracy, and 3.6 second recharge time. With something like this. you can out range mechs and still be doing damage to those pilots who sacrificed range and accuracy for doing more up close damage.

I hope this explains this a little better for changing how a weapon acts with some basic stats differences.

Edited by Hollister, 22 November 2011 - 10:11 AM.

[CeeKay Boques]

Just wanted to chime in on how I dislike the microcustomization route you're taking Hollister. I understand that it is a workable system for having differences in weapons. However, while this allows for extreme customization, which on the surface sounds good, its so very much like having a staff that has +10 Intellect +10 Dexterity and +2 Strength and 115 DPS, that I think people will start wearing their Mechs like a piece of RPG gear, and we'll all be mathmatically stat min/maxing. I bet someone will make a spreadsheet and find all the best combos of various different companies, and will figure out the highest "DPS" per chassis/class/weapon company.

I would rather see missiles fire at different angles. 45 degrees or 75... I like your time to target, some missiles can be faster or slower, that's not bad. But I would rather that the weapons DO things: levels of recoil, pulse longer, less prone to breaking, create a big cloud of almost concealing smoke when fired, those types of cool things, rather than allowing me to precicesly win the math game.

[Hollister]

I know what you are saying. I would rather this not turn into something like WoW. So lots of balancing would be needed so one type would not come out as the best as you said. As I know there are people out there who do nothing but play games and number cruntch and try to use and take advantage of a system as much as possible, more so for broken balances. I am just giving a basic idea of how something can be changed and be useful for a persons style of game play.

The devs for all we know already have something in place that is total different to this while still keeping things unique.

One thing I would like to see is manufacturer qualities. For me a diverse optics if memory serves is supposed to be one of the best laser manufacturers in the inner sphere so why would said laser not be better then something that is a bootleg out of a backwater periphery world.

[DocBach]

Without micro customization people are still going to figure out which weapon systems have the greatest DPS. And the boats will march on, regardless of the system they use.

[VYCanis]

Assuming you allow enough variation, its entirely possible to have a large laser that puts out less damage in a single shot than a medium laser.

however, who's to say that the afore mentioned large laser might not have a relatively fast recycle rate to just keep zapping and zapping, allowing for very careful heat control at the cost of spreading the damage around.



Aside from certain variables that should not change, i.e. weight/tonnage and in the case of missiles, shots fired per salvo. Some extreme variation could allow for all sorts interesting gear if you simply imagine the relative rating of the weapon as being more of a point buy type system.

So you could easily end up with an ac2 and ac20 of the same caliber, except the ac20 is firing so much faster that the recoil is so bad it makes long range use untenable.

Also, these variations should not be customized by the player as that would open up things to abuse, but instead be found or purchased as is.

another important thing is price.

if say you can lose your gear, thus requiring extre models of a weapon class as replacements, and you know you are going to be in for a real meat grinder of a mission/campaign/whatever, do you want to go in with the fancy gear that you paid an arm and a leg for and pray for the best, or do you try to balance risk vs reward a little more pragmatically, and slap in gear made by quickscell that you bought in bulk at half price.

yeah it will probably be unreliable, and ******, but in the short term, it might get the job done well enough to let you afford better stuff later, and won't be missed when shot off.

[SeDevri]

VYCanis, on 22 November 2011 - 12:46 PM, said:

Also, these variations should not be customized by the player as that would open up things to abuse, but instead be found or purchased as is.

another important thing is price.

if say you can lose your gear, thus requiring extre models of a weapon class as replacements, and you know you are going to be in for a real meat grinder of a mission/campaign/whatever, do you want to go in with the fancy gear that you paid an arm and a leg for and pray for the best, or do you try to balance risk vs reward a little more pragmatically, and slap in gear made by quickscell that you bought in bulk at half price.

yeah it will probably be unreliable, and ******, but in the short term, it might get the job done well enough to let you afford better stuff later, and won't be missed when shot off.

I believe that these to points are very important.

I agree with you 100% that players should not be able to tweek the parts themselves but have to buy/find the parts they want. That would prevent some of the possible abuse, but your second point is almost more important than the first. This wont be a game like WoW where there are not significant repercussions for losing. If your in a fight in this game and you lose a weapon, there should be a very real chance that the weapon will be gone for good(maybe even a 50% chance). So by all means let those number crunchers come and get shot to hell then have to work their way back up. If the game functions anything like that, i doubt we will see much of the same problems that games like WoW have. After all, doesn't matter how good you and your mech are, one or two luck shots and the field is level again.

I'm all for variety, and once again, for more than just weapons. Lets hear some ideas for other types of gear, like combat comps, actuators, myomer, and such. Come one people, use those huge nerdy brains!

[Hollister]

I agree with that the player should not be able to change stats. They could be manufacturer specific. So a diverse optics laser would have better accuracy and damage with shorter range and longer recharge time. While a magna does less damage and less range,but has a faster recharge time and good accuracy. Something to keep manufacturers different from one another.

[VYCanis]

Someone in another thread was bringing up different tac comps

but hell, why stop there?

Gyros that might be better suited for one particular activity, but not so much another. Such as maybe retaining balance better than average at slow speeds, but less than average at a run, or extremely stable during jetting but kinda sucky on the ground,
Engines that might have faster acceleration at the cost of a lower top speed, or slightly higher heat output, or have slower speed but higher "torque", allowing for more consistent speeds up inclines and over rough terrain.
different types of jumpjets, with their own particular quirks, some might accelerate faster but heat up harder, others might work slow but give a lot more height.
Different brands of heatsinks, some might work more efficiently as they get hotter then they do when cold, making it easier to ride the red at the cost of always being hot or other heatsinks that bleed off better when cool, making low level heat gain no big deal so long as you don't spike it. or sinks calibrated to certain environments, or sinks that might work at lower efficiency, but are more fortified to avoid getting broken, or sinks that provide extra cooling by virtue of pressurized aerosols that cause small internal explosions when they get popped.

all sorts of possibilities

EDIT

oh and even if you find the perfect sweet spot of optimizing the hell out of a build, if your equipment can get trashed, good job, i hope you have spares for all that equipment. Thus making even the sweetest build something of a sandcastle. No matter how much you love it and put time into it, it will eventually be destroyed and you have to start all over if its important enough to you to keep using it.

Edited by VYCanis, 22 November 2011 - 05:40 PM.

[DocBach]

I think your on to something with the jump jets, as those have specific makes and models available to give them some variation (Rawlings 55, Leviathan Lifters, Devil A7s), but they never really got into specific manufacturers on gyros or heat sinks.

[SMDMadCow]

There may be all sorts of different manufactuers for everything, but it has no influence on game mechanics, its all fluff stuff.

[DocBach]

Yeah, the idea is to use the fluff stuff to give each piece of equipment its own tangible characteristics.

[Halfinax]

I definetely think that an implementation of the multiple manufacturer's having their own unique properties to the weapons would be a marvelous idea. It could add a lot of variety, and maybe if implemented as an alternative to full customization could really add a lot to personalizing and otherwise stock 'Mech. Having to decide between the various pros and cons of each manufacturer's version of a Medium Laser would provide that feel of customizing without creating some of the balancing issues of full customization.

[VYCanis]

brainstormin' up some stats. The following are all Large lasers

using the following stat block, note all numbers are just vague asspulls in terms of balance in my head. but i like to balance heavier power against longer recycle times, longer beam durations (to spread the damage) and other stuff


Damage- total damage for that shot
Duration- how many seconds or fraction thereof a beam lasts
Effective range- range up to which laser does max damage, after which damage peters off.
Heat- how much heat is generated during 1 firing
Rate of fire- how many times it can fire consecutively inside of a minute/seconds of cooldown between firing
Firing delay- how many seconds or fractions there of (if any at all) between trigger pull and laser being fired
Resiliency- on a scale of 1-10 (1 being fragile and 10 being rugged as hell) how well the weapon can take damage and continue to function, also determines how much maintenance is needed during repairs and in dealing with wear and tear.
Maintenance cost multiplier. How much more or less than the original price of the weapon it would cost to repair from nonworking condition to perfect condition.
Price. cost of the weapon
color wave length. color of the beam.
special features. any special things of note, if any.


Defiance B3L
Damage. 8
Duration. .5s
Effective range. 480
Heat. 8.5
Rate of fire 10rpm 6 seconds
Firing delay .25s
Resiliency 7 of 10
Maintenance cost multiplier 1.5x
Price 110,000 cbills
color wave length. cerulean
special features. none

Diverse Optics Type 30
Damage 6.5
Duration .2s
Effective range 430m
Heat 6.5
Rate of fire 12rpm 5 seconds
Firing delay 0s
Resiliency 5 of 10
Maintenance cost multiplier 1.2x
Price 95.500 cbills
color wave length cobalt
special features none

Magna Mk III
Damage 10
Duration .8s
Effective range 450
Heat 11
Rate of fire 8rpm 7.5 seconds
Firing delay .7s
Resiliency 4 of 10
Maintenance cost multiplier 2.5x
Price 160,000 cbills
color wave length cyan
special features none

Lushann Redbeam http://www.sarna.net...Lushann_Redbeam
Damage 9
Duration .6s
Effective range 440
Heat 9
Rate of fire 9rpm 6.67 seconds
Firing delay .3s
Resiliency 9 of 10
Maintenance cost multiplier .8x
Price 140,000 cbills
color wave length red
special features. if this weapon takes enough critical damage to qualify as disabled, it can actually continue to function at reduced output up until it is actually destroyed.

Cyclops Eye http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cyclops_Eye
Damage 12
Duration 1.4s
Effective range 500
Heat 13
Rate of fire 6rpm 10 seconds
Firing delay 1s
Resiliency 3 of 10
Maintenance cost multiplier 1.1x
Price 200,300 cbills
color wave length bright bluegreen beam tinged with electrical arcs
special features Weapon is a cross between ppc and laser technology, scrambles HUD on target as per a ppc impact.

Edited by VYCanis, 29 November 2011 - 11:48 PM.

[SMDMadCow]

Interesting ideas, but I do not think we will see that kind of detail in game. It kind of makes all the lasers overlap on other weapons, like ppcs, and other laser sizes.

[VYCanis]

SMDMadCow, on 30 November 2011 - 07:09 PM, said:

Interesting ideas, but I do not think we will see that kind of detail in game. It kind of makes all the lasers overlap on other weapons, like ppcs, and other laser sizes.

you see it as a bad thing to muddy the waters with overlapping equipment capabilities, i think its a great thing.

Some of the more interesting weapons and mechs are the types of equipment that end up as "a poor man's X"

sure a large laser might *try* to be like a ppc, it might come close, but not without making so many sacrifices along the way that the ppc is still a more practical solution. but sometimes you can't afford a ppc, sometimes you don't have the room. so you settle for the next best thing. Besides, such a system could also expand to ppcs, giving lots of different flavors to them. from man made lightning style of mpbt3025 to particle beams from mw3-4-mwll to floaty blue orbs of the older games

Edited by VYCanis, 01 December 2011 - 04:55 AM.

[CeeKay Boques]

SMDMadCow, on 24 November 2011 - 10:36 AM, said:

There may be all sorts of different manufactuers for everything, but it has no influence on game mechanics, its all fluff stuff.

Yes, that how it has been. Lets change that.

[UncleKulikov]

I am in full support of multiple manufacturers having different statistics, especially for things like Autocannons so each class can have different fire rates, perhaps 3 types per class.

[SMDMadCow]

VYCanis, on 01 December 2011 - 02:56 AM, said:

you see it as a bad thing to muddy the waters with overlapping equipment capabilities, i think its a great thing.

Some of the more interesting weapons and mechs are the types of equipment that end up as "a poor man's X"

sure a large laser might *try* to be like a ppc, it might come close, but not without making so many sacrifices along the way that the ppc is still a more practical solution. but sometimes you can't afford a ppc, sometimes you don't have the room. so you settle for the next best thing. Besides, such a system could also expand to ppcs, giving lots of different flavors to them. from man made lightning style of mpbt3025 to particle beams from mw3-4-mwll to floaty blue orbs of the older games

I never said it was a bad thing, I just feel that while very creative, it ends up overly complicated and unnessecary. That being my opinion, if something like this ends up being implemented then I will just have to deal with it. But, if I really want a PPC in plave of a laser, then I can find the tonnage to free up somewhere.