How do you disable the hud?
I agree with most of what has been said. We are PC gamers, and are used to being able to scale are graphics setting accordingly. Would there be any way to add a more scalable graphics menu for people with really good rigs?
9
Russ: Town Hall Question About The Game's Visual Quality
Started by aniviron, Oct 03 2014 02:17 AM
146 replies to this topic
#102
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 01:31 PM
MIKE25S, on 04 October 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:
How do you disable the hud?
Shift + F11
#103
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 01:57 PM
I agree the visuals in close beta were amazing. Other things I also liked were the old Missile flight paths how they twisted and turned as they left the launch tubes I love too see the close beta look and feel again I am all for this, The old beta just had so much atmosphere and it felt life like. But yea I agree the new flight missile animation has got nothing on the good old Beta one hope too see its return and the improved graphics. Heck I even loved some of the old sound effects as well, the old missile launching and AC sounds, the impact sounds mostly defiantly. \m/
Edited by Kh0rn, 04 October 2014 - 02:08 PM.
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 02:13 PM
Vassago Rain, on 03 October 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:
Most of it's due to the 'dual core optimizations,' which needed further optimizations to make the game playable again.
Also, in february 2013, they overhauled the mech skins to fit with the new camo system. That's why the old damage meshes are no longer in existence.
Also, in february 2013, they overhauled the mech skins to fit with the new camo system. That's why the old damage meshes are no longer in existence.
Those damage meshes are still in the game files and they still work with the mechs. Some need slight updates to work with overhauled meshes (weapon customization) but beyond that work just fine with the existing mechs.
The issue is that they never created any for the mechs after that change.
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 02:45 PM
aniviron, on 03 October 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:
Hey Russ, one of the first questions asked during the town hall meeting was about the decline in visual quality from beta to present; I wasn't the one who asked the question, but it's something that is on my mind as well, so I hope I can add some things. As a preface, I have a pretty decent rig, and run on maxed everything, so I'm not cutting corners.
One of my personal biggest disappointments is the removal of inverse kinematics for mechs' legs. For those who don't know what this is: when walking on uneven terrain, IK bends the feet and knees so that they match the slope of the surface and neither stick through or float above it. For example, a screenshot I took of what MWO looks like today:
As you can see, one leg is floating above the mountain, while the other is embedded in it. The legs are posed as though the mech was on flat ground.
Compare that to the following screenshot, where the front right foot of the catapult is aligned to the ground, and the knee is deeply bent so that the back foot doesn't float above the ground or the front foot isn't sticking into it.
Here's another shot of IK at work from the official media on the MWO site; note how the Dragon's left knee is bent so that while the right leg is fully extended the mech stays level without floating or being embedded in the ground.
Another thing to note is that the damage textures on the Catapult's side torso and hip show off the metal underneath the armor and paint; while they weren't terribly high-res textures, they were a glimpse of the mech's internals after the outside had been peeled off. At some point, those textures were changed to a generic bullet impact texture that is a flat grey and shows as bullet holes regardless of whether the damage was caused by a gauss rifle, a flamer, or a laser.
In regards to causing that damage, internal ammo explosions have lost their 'pop.' Here's a video of an ammo explosion from the outside in beta (starts at 20s)
http://youtu.be/rgJ2n5sEn9c?t=20s
and another of the explosion from the inside (starts at 5:20):
http://youtu.be/syyrgIKLim8?t=5m20s
Regarding the ammo itself, the missile flight path changes have been pretty disappointing from a visual standpoint. The swarm effect, the corkscrew, and the undulating paths that we've had at different points in the game all lent missile fire a good amount of visual interest (and gave SRMs a nice added bit of skill ceiling, while leaving the floor intact). The current straight-line flight paths are usable, but ultimately severely lacking in visual interest.
In regards to mapping, it's a bit of a mixed bag. Some pretty cool things were removed, like the blizzard rolling in on Frozen City; now the weather effect just starts and stops, but at one point, you could watch it rolling in over the frozen sea before it hit. Now it's just a fog and snow effect that fades in an out during the match.
After some LOD passes were done, Caustic and River City both looked heinously bad, with buildings and rocks popping in and out of existence on a whim. To PGI's credit, it's been fixed on River City, and the map now looks better than it did before, at least in regards to building LOD. Caustic however, is still awful. Walking in a straight line yields the ground and rocks undulating underfoot every hundred meters or so, changing size and shape as distance closes.
Even Alpine, added quite a while after the old cadre of maps, has had some tuning: the rock texture on the sides of the mountains used to have a depth mapping effect to make the map look less like a series of gentle rolling hills with white painted on the grass.
Another thing that's missing is map interactivity: while it was never huge, there were some great little details that really made them feel a lot better. Watch the following video, starting at 29s:
http://youtu.be/zWZBLA-Y8zg?t=34s
What you're looking for isn't the collision on the mechs; it's under them. The ground used to crater and crack when mechs fell over. And surprise of all surprises, it even used to knock streetlights down if you fell over on them!
Go ahead and rewatch that video and tell me if something feels off about River City to you while you're at it, because it should: RC is gorgeous in that video. It's the same map, more or less, but that wonderful feeling of light and reflection and depth and contrast that the whole video has is something the RC we have now lacks. Well, I thought to myself, maybe it was Kon's settings? Or the video encode? Maybe my memory is just getting dull?
So I went hunting. Here's another screenshot from the official media section of the MWO website. It's got that same feeling as Koniving's video; look at how the glass reflects the light, the way it shines off the side of that catapult, and the great contrast, presumably from the HDR implementation.
Now here's a screenshot of that same intersection (sans mechs) that I took ten minutes ago.
Compared to the first image, it looks... flat. Drab. Shabby. Uninteresting. The windows hardly reflect, and what they do looks bad. The soft fog is gone, the colour palette is less vibrant. It looks like a knock-off of the game the first image is from. It doesn't look bad, per se, but it's not gorgeous like that first shot.
Look at the lighting on the mechs in the first image too- see the way that the Hunchback's side is lit, but the back is dim? Compare that to the first screenshot in the post, and notice how the lighting effect is almost completely gone. The Hunchback on Alpine is lit in a flat, even manner, with every surface as bright as every other. Look back at the beta screenshot again, and the shadowing and bright spots on the shutdown founder's Cat. That kind of light and shadow detail seems to be lostech.
It probably helps in those screenshots that back then, every mech got a custom texture that really drew out the beauty of the model- the stock green camo that comes on most mechs now has nowhere near the same amount of finesse. Furthermore, the older textures seem to have been higher-res; what we have now is a crapshoot, with sizes ranging from 512x512 to 2048x2048. Here's a great post by Lordred showing the various texture sizes on all the mechs.
So Russ, when that question was asked, I have to assume this is what the asker was referencing (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). It just feels like the visual quality has slipped significantly since beta in all sorts of little ways; the mech animations don't have the same detail they used to, ER Mlasers cast a green light despite burning yellow, snow shows as white in thermal as though it were hot, etc. It's telling that in a recent video review, TotalBiscuit said of a game that it looked great, like every CryEngine game, and then went on to add, "except Mechwarrior Online."
Addendum: I was going to add to the previous paragraph that mechs no longer left individual footprint decals like they used to, but now they just don't leave footprints at all. Add one more thing to the list of details that have been erased.
One of my personal biggest disappointments is the removal of inverse kinematics for mechs' legs. For those who don't know what this is: when walking on uneven terrain, IK bends the feet and knees so that they match the slope of the surface and neither stick through or float above it. For example, a screenshot I took of what MWO looks like today:
As you can see, one leg is floating above the mountain, while the other is embedded in it. The legs are posed as though the mech was on flat ground.
Compare that to the following screenshot, where the front right foot of the catapult is aligned to the ground, and the knee is deeply bent so that the back foot doesn't float above the ground or the front foot isn't sticking into it.
Here's another shot of IK at work from the official media on the MWO site; note how the Dragon's left knee is bent so that while the right leg is fully extended the mech stays level without floating or being embedded in the ground.
Another thing to note is that the damage textures on the Catapult's side torso and hip show off the metal underneath the armor and paint; while they weren't terribly high-res textures, they were a glimpse of the mech's internals after the outside had been peeled off. At some point, those textures were changed to a generic bullet impact texture that is a flat grey and shows as bullet holes regardless of whether the damage was caused by a gauss rifle, a flamer, or a laser.
In regards to causing that damage, internal ammo explosions have lost their 'pop.' Here's a video of an ammo explosion from the outside in beta (starts at 20s)
http://youtu.be/rgJ2n5sEn9c?t=20s
and another of the explosion from the inside (starts at 5:20):
http://youtu.be/syyrgIKLim8?t=5m20s
Regarding the ammo itself, the missile flight path changes have been pretty disappointing from a visual standpoint. The swarm effect, the corkscrew, and the undulating paths that we've had at different points in the game all lent missile fire a good amount of visual interest (and gave SRMs a nice added bit of skill ceiling, while leaving the floor intact). The current straight-line flight paths are usable, but ultimately severely lacking in visual interest.
In regards to mapping, it's a bit of a mixed bag. Some pretty cool things were removed, like the blizzard rolling in on Frozen City; now the weather effect just starts and stops, but at one point, you could watch it rolling in over the frozen sea before it hit. Now it's just a fog and snow effect that fades in an out during the match.
After some LOD passes were done, Caustic and River City both looked heinously bad, with buildings and rocks popping in and out of existence on a whim. To PGI's credit, it's been fixed on River City, and the map now looks better than it did before, at least in regards to building LOD. Caustic however, is still awful. Walking in a straight line yields the ground and rocks undulating underfoot every hundred meters or so, changing size and shape as distance closes.
Even Alpine, added quite a while after the old cadre of maps, has had some tuning: the rock texture on the sides of the mountains used to have a depth mapping effect to make the map look less like a series of gentle rolling hills with white painted on the grass.
Another thing that's missing is map interactivity: while it was never huge, there were some great little details that really made them feel a lot better. Watch the following video, starting at 29s:
http://youtu.be/zWZBLA-Y8zg?t=34s
What you're looking for isn't the collision on the mechs; it's under them. The ground used to crater and crack when mechs fell over. And surprise of all surprises, it even used to knock streetlights down if you fell over on them!
Go ahead and rewatch that video and tell me if something feels off about River City to you while you're at it, because it should: RC is gorgeous in that video. It's the same map, more or less, but that wonderful feeling of light and reflection and depth and contrast that the whole video has is something the RC we have now lacks. Well, I thought to myself, maybe it was Kon's settings? Or the video encode? Maybe my memory is just getting dull?
So I went hunting. Here's another screenshot from the official media section of the MWO website. It's got that same feeling as Koniving's video; look at how the glass reflects the light, the way it shines off the side of that catapult, and the great contrast, presumably from the HDR implementation.
Now here's a screenshot of that same intersection (sans mechs) that I took ten minutes ago.
Compared to the first image, it looks... flat. Drab. Shabby. Uninteresting. The windows hardly reflect, and what they do looks bad. The soft fog is gone, the colour palette is less vibrant. It looks like a knock-off of the game the first image is from. It doesn't look bad, per se, but it's not gorgeous like that first shot.
Look at the lighting on the mechs in the first image too- see the way that the Hunchback's side is lit, but the back is dim? Compare that to the first screenshot in the post, and notice how the lighting effect is almost completely gone. The Hunchback on Alpine is lit in a flat, even manner, with every surface as bright as every other. Look back at the beta screenshot again, and the shadowing and bright spots on the shutdown founder's Cat. That kind of light and shadow detail seems to be lostech.
It probably helps in those screenshots that back then, every mech got a custom texture that really drew out the beauty of the model- the stock green camo that comes on most mechs now has nowhere near the same amount of finesse. Furthermore, the older textures seem to have been higher-res; what we have now is a crapshoot, with sizes ranging from 512x512 to 2048x2048. Here's a great post by Lordred showing the various texture sizes on all the mechs.
So Russ, when that question was asked, I have to assume this is what the asker was referencing (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). It just feels like the visual quality has slipped significantly since beta in all sorts of little ways; the mech animations don't have the same detail they used to, ER Mlasers cast a green light despite burning yellow, snow shows as white in thermal as though it were hot, etc. It's telling that in a recent video review, TotalBiscuit said of a game that it looked great, like every CryEngine game, and then went on to add, "except Mechwarrior Online."
Addendum: I was going to add to the previous paragraph that mechs no longer left individual footprint decals like they used to, but now they just don't leave footprints at all. Add one more thing to the list of details that have been erased.
If I could give this post a +10 I would. Thanks for posting this OP. The pics speak for themselves. The graphics in closed early beta were far superior and I have hopes that it will return to that state. The explosions were better as well. The effects and smoke was well placed and done well. The textures on the mechs were better and reflected like real metal as well. Just watch the early GDC vids. Better much better. So the million dollar question is...Russ? Can we have those graphics back please? Closed beta was just a beauty to play. So much more immersive for me. At the very least maybe we could get an option to enable this advanced fidelity.
Thanks
#107
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 03:12 PM
Russ Bullock, on 03 October 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:
Some really good thoughts in here - its likely true that some of the optimizations removed stuff that should still be present on High or Very high settings.
People are looking into that now.
But Vassago lets not show screen shots of CryEngine with a solo player in view, its similar to those screen shots that were floating around with one mech standing amongst trees. That is one thing but then put 24 of them in the same scene all firing lasers, missiles and so on with player connected from Australia to Germany.
I have not doubt there is plenty of room for both optimization/performance increases and making things a lot prettier. We will let you know what we find in our investigation.
The new damage texture for the mechs was much more about time to develop. Basically the old method added entire days and days to the modeling process for results that in most cases were fairly poor and nowhere near worth the time and effort.
I think we need to put more time into model swapping destroyed components like we do with the arms. The code supports that for the legs, torsos etc. Just need the models.
People are looking into that now.
But Vassago lets not show screen shots of CryEngine with a solo player in view, its similar to those screen shots that were floating around with one mech standing amongst trees. That is one thing but then put 24 of them in the same scene all firing lasers, missiles and so on with player connected from Australia to Germany.
I have not doubt there is plenty of room for both optimization/performance increases and making things a lot prettier. We will let you know what we find in our investigation.
The new damage texture for the mechs was much more about time to develop. Basically the old method added entire days and days to the modeling process for results that in most cases were fairly poor and nowhere near worth the time and effort.
I think we need to put more time into model swapping destroyed components like we do with the arms. The code supports that for the legs, torsos etc. Just need the models.
Thanks Russ for the response. I'm very passionate about getting those old better graphics back along with IK. If you guys can reignite it back in the game I will buy every mech there is just to see it on the battlefield.
take my money. Hell I would pay for another founders package just get those graphics back.
Edited by carl kerensky, 04 October 2014 - 03:27 PM.
#108
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 03:21 PM
Koniving, on 04 October 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:
Those damage meshes are still in the game files and they still work with the mechs. Some need slight updates to work with overhauled meshes (weapon customization) but beyond that work just fine with the existing mechs.
The issue is that they never created any for the mechs after that change.
The issue is that they never created any for the mechs after that change.
Just the original 'Mechs, though? I must admit, I think I'd prefer internal damage meshes rather than the generic damage texture we have now. Though from what Russ said it sounds like it wasn't compatible with their camo system. :\
#109
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 05:10 PM
rusticatedcharm, on 03 October 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:
I want the ammo explosion noises so bad. Can't figure out why that was taken out.
aniviron, on 03 October 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:
I've linked to the end of that video so many times I just have the URL saved. The cockpit heaving around while that sound plays is terrifying, and makes it very clear when you die to an ammo explosion.
dJellyfish, on 03 October 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:
This. I want this so very much. Please, PGI. Please.
MMMhhmmmmm!!!
The popcorn of death cometh...
#110
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 05:17 PM
Inverse Kinematics would play merry hell with Host State Rewind, unless it too took Inverse Kinematics into account, but that in turn would require considerably more CPU power, I'd guess...
... It may very well be that they took out IK when HSR went in and haven't been able to put it back in since? I'd love IK back, but only PGI will be able to tell whether they can bring it back.
... It may very well be that they took out IK when HSR went in and haven't been able to put it back in since? I'd love IK back, but only PGI will be able to tell whether they can bring it back.
#111
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 05:19 PM
I'd also take 2 different meshes based on what kind of weapon caused the damage .
#112
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 06:41 PM
i still think the game looks great as it is. I would just like the performace of things to get fixed.
1. Smoke lag.
2. DX11
3. SLI
4. SLI + DX11.
DX11 looks way better over 9, but with SLI you can't use it at all....I'd be a super happy camper if they got nvidia to get a profile and fixed it..god I'd be so super happy.
1. Smoke lag.
2. DX11
3. SLI
4. SLI + DX11.
DX11 looks way better over 9, but with SLI you can't use it at all....I'd be a super happy camper if they got nvidia to get a profile and fixed it..god I'd be so super happy.
#113
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 06:43 PM
Scratx, on 04 October 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:
Inverse Kinematics would play merry hell with Host State Rewind, unless it too took Inverse Kinematics into account, but that in turn would require considerably more CPU power, I'd guess...
... It may very well be that they took out IK when HSR went in and haven't been able to put it back in since? I'd love IK back, but only PGI will be able to tell whether they can bring it back.
... It may very well be that they took out IK when HSR went in and haven't been able to put it back in since? I'd love IK back, but only PGI will be able to tell whether they can bring it back.
No, it was taken out long before that.
#114
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 06:55 PM
To comment on the sli and dx11 issue. Just today I have found a way to get sli working without flicker and with dx11. The only problems are the ones that are present without sli as well. I used nvidia inspector to adjust the most recent driver to force sli enabled. With this method I was also able to turn on 8x msaa. Everything runs around 50-60 fps except when there is a massive amount of particles on screen.
Edited by thakillaposse42, 04 October 2014 - 06:55 PM.
#115
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 07:03 PM
Thorn Hallis, on 04 October 2014 - 01:29 AM, said:
Another thing that bothers me (and I'm really on an island here) is that so many of the newer 'Mechs simply do not look like war machines (ingame), they look more like oversized toys.
Something that I think would help that, is if we could see the pilot through the glass (just a static model, not an active object). Freelancer has this in their ship models, where you can see the pilot model of the other ship, it gives you an immediate reference to scale.
Might make more problems with some mechs being out of scale though
#116
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 07:18 PM
UrsusMorologus, on 04 October 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:
Something that I think would help that, is if we could see the pilot through the glass (just a static model, not an active object). Freelancer has this in their ship models, where you can see the pilot model of the other ship, it gives you an immediate reference to scale.
Might make more problems with some mechs being out of scale though
Might make more problems with some mechs being out of scale though
The mechwarrior guy doesn't actually have a head, so they'd have to put the mechwarrior helmet on him. The cockpits don't work the way you'd think, either. See the attached pic.
Also, I found another ancient picture of legs working.
#117
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 07:31 PM
Vassago Rain, on 04 October 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:
The mechwarrior guy doesn't actually have a head, so they'd have to put the mechwarrior helmet on him. The cockpits don't work the way you'd think, either. See the attached pic.
Also, I found another ancient picture of legs working.
That's cool, I've always wondered how they did the cockpits. So it pretty much just renders a cockpit mesh over a headless mesh of the player 'Mech? Why is it so far forward, anyway? I want to see the 'Mech around me.
Actually now I see that's way over sized. I suppose that's why there's a lack of sense of scale when in first person.
Edited by AUSwarrior24, 04 October 2014 - 07:33 PM.
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 07:40 PM
AUSwarrior24, on 04 October 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:
That's cool, I've always wondered how they did the cockpits. So it pretty much just renders a cockpit mesh over a headless mesh of the player 'Mech? Why is it so far forward, anyway? I want to see the 'Mech around me.
Actually now I see that's way over sized. I suppose that's why there's a lack of sense of scale when in first person.
Some of them are relatively 'in scale,' but it'd take quite some work to make it, well...work.
PGI's mechwarrior, inside a raven, with Psycho's head.
Edited by Vassago Rain, 04 October 2014 - 07:40 PM.
#119
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 10:17 PM
Kh0rn, on 04 October 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:
I agree the visuals in close beta were amazing. Other things I also liked were the old Missile flight paths how they twisted and turned as they left the launch tubes I love too see the close beta look and feel again I am all for this, The old beta just had so much atmosphere and it felt life like. But yea I agree the new flight missile animation has got nothing on the good old Beta one hope too see its return and the improved graphics. Heck I even loved some of the old sound effects as well, the old missile launching and AC sounds, the impact sounds mostly defiantly. \m/
Thought I'd mention, since it was quoted so much, that the CB missile paths actually caused hit detection issues. I can't remember if it was in a Command Chair or what, but the devs were quoted as saying that the swirly paths made hitreg spotty at best. After LRMageddon, this was especially noticeable. LRMs were doing regular amounts of damage, but only about 1/2 of those LRMs seemed to be doing it.
While having more animated SRMs would be sweet, with maybe a little bit of juggle added to the LRMs, but I'd much rather have smoother frames and better hitreg than what players at the time were calling "Gundam LRMs". Players that liked the CB LRMs were in the minority at the time.
Amazing what looking in hindsight does to the memory xD
#120
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Posted 05 October 2014 - 02:10 AM
A lot of good points, and it's something I'm very interested in too. That said I think you're overstating the footing issue.
At no point in MWO's history would the game show the hunchback on that incline with both feet on the ground. Also in the Catapult picture it's only a very slight incline, and the right foot IS embedded in the ground. The toe closest to us would have thickness to it instead of a slope (just the top of the toe visible) leading directly to the ground. This just looks better because it is a less exaggerated slope.
Refer to some of the bullet-ridden mech pictures someone posted on the first page and you will see feet raised on subtler ground variations just like the old Atlas picture. If there have been any changes to this specific part of the game they've been incredibly subtle.
At no point in MWO's history would the game show the hunchback on that incline with both feet on the ground. Also in the Catapult picture it's only a very slight incline, and the right foot IS embedded in the ground. The toe closest to us would have thickness to it instead of a slope (just the top of the toe visible) leading directly to the ground. This just looks better because it is a less exaggerated slope.
Refer to some of the bullet-ridden mech pictures someone posted on the first page and you will see feet raised on subtler ground variations just like the old Atlas picture. If there have been any changes to this specific part of the game they've been incredibly subtle.
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