75 replies to this topic

[Burke IV]

Lock the builds. People got too much customisation choice anyway. Battle mechs are designed for the "universe" they live in, planted into this "arcade machine" its no wonder the builds go mad. Locking builds solves all problems and once the shouting was over people might find a game with a different pace but just as much skill to play. I didnt say lock them to stock tho

[Eddrick]

Burke IV, on 04 October 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

Lock the builds. People got too much customisation choice anyway. Battle mechs are designed for the "universe" they live in, planted into this "arcade machine" its no wonder the builds go mad. Locking builds solves all problems and once the shouting was over people might find a game with a different pace but just as much skill to play. I didnt say lock them to stock tho

Lock them in what way?

[Burke IV]

In answer to the boating of PPCs and pin point damage, if mechs came with locked loadouts where no mech ever carryed more than 2 PPCs, with perhaps some exceptions, eg awsome then all the issues would go away. Why have so many identical chassis anyway? imagine the player had a choice of 6 different stalkers and that was it. The builds themselfs could be thrashed out and altered over time and it would end the arguments over "competative" play and etc etc and bring the game back to a mechwarrior feel.


Edit: and its better than size mounts cause it still allows a wide range of builds. It just locks out the undesirable ones. Its the probably the best answer to that problem the game will ever get.

Edited by Burke IV, 04 October 2014 - 10:14 AM.

[IceSerpent]

Burke IV, on 04 October 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

In answer to the boating of PPCs and pin point damage, if mechs came with locked loadouts where no mech ever carryed more than 2 PPCs, with perhaps some exceptions, eg awsome then all the issues would go away. Why have so many identical chassis anyway? imagine the player had a choice of 6 different stalkers and that was it. The builds themselfs could be thrashed out and altered over time and it would end the arguments over "competative" play and etc etc and bring the game back to a mechwarrior feel.

It would be financially bad for PGI - people would only buy/grind a few "good" builds.

Quote

Edit: and its better than size mounts cause it still allows a wide range of builds. It just locks out the undesirable ones. Its the probably the best answer to that problem the game will ever get.

You are making no sense - sized hardpoints only limit customization of that particular hardpoint and only in a sense that you can't fit a large weapon into a "limited" hardpoint. I.e. if you have ballistic point limited to 9 slots, you only can't put AC20 in there, everything else still fits. Stock builds, on the other hand, limit you to only a handful of builds available - 6 different Stalkers would limit you to 6 different Stalker builds period.

[Colby Boucher]

OK, so apparently we can't make polls anymore. Anyways, here's what I think could be done for convergence, generally speaking.

Everyone is afraid of random dice rolls. I am too. We don't need a cone of fire, we just need non-pinpoint weapon convergence. Make it fixed to a specific distance for certain weapons in certain situations. In fact, use the same weapon values to kick the system in as heat scale (i.e. up to 6 medLasers can be pinpoint, up to 2 PPCs) This way heat scale can be removed for something that fixes the problem more directly and allows builds that go over these numbers to continue being effective with a certain degree of skill. The numbers can be tuned from there.

For instance, if you were to fire 3 PPCs at once, then the convergence on the weapons would act as though your target was 1000 meters away, no matter what the distance. Can all the weapons still hit? Yes, and predictably so. They just won't all hit the same spot. Same would go for 2 AC/20s and whatever else is effected by ghost heat right now. Unlike ghost heat, ballistics would affected as equally as everything else.

In addition, the effect should kick in whenever more than 6 weapons are fired no matter what the weapons are.

With this system, small weapons would barely be punished, builds would not be artificially destroyed by heat, and there is a simple "fluff" explanation, despite it not being "cannon"... firing so many weapons at once overloads the Mech's targeting systems.

I'm open to criticism, and expect it.

[Malcolm Reynolds]

Show me where the timberwolf will best the summoner if the s variants torsos are logged down even further with 2 jj a side. least with the summoner you can fit ac 20 in either torso or an arm. the jump jets are in its legs so taking up no important room. missle slots you say 4 srm 6.........summoner can do 5. So I would like to see were the new timberwolf can sport better load outs.

[Colby Boucher]

Kitsune Kaji, on 04 October 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

Show me where the timberwolf will best the summoner if the s variants torsos are logged down even further with 2 jj a side. least with the summoner you can fit ac 20 in either torso or an arm. the jump jets are in its legs so taking up no important room. missle slots you say 4 srm 6.........summoner can do 5. So I would like to see were the new timberwolf can sport better load outs.

Do you realize you're adding nothing to this conversation?

[Malcolm Reynolds]

Then show me how the Timber wolf will remain better then the heavies that are out there. I'm am being told the summoner wont be on par with it. Prove me wrong. T I will admit PGI is doing a good thing by continually messing with something I paid Money for.

[KraftySOT]

To be fair, if your weapons just fired forward, and didnt converge at all...youd still hit usually the same location anyways.

Maybe the Awesome, being so wide might have an issue, but for almost every other mech, youd hardly notice the difference most of the time.

But pin point convergence is the worst part of this game. The longer it stays, the less people play. Eventually the "top competitive players" will be the only people here, and the game will die. Just like Fighter Ace.

Though unfortunately, theres no point in it. Theyll never fix it.

And ill never spend a dime on a PGI product.

Those two things go hand in hand.

But can you really expect anything different from a company that thinks it can ride the coat tails of Star Citizen? PGIs entire business model is like the same philosophy as the 70s and 80s comic book movies and video game-to-movie adaptations.

Were going to do whatever we want with this IP and ride it for every cent its worth, knowing theres a built in fanbase.

And this game is exactly as successful as the original Punisher movie with Dolph Lundgren.

We just have to wait for our 'Sam Raimi' to come along and give the fans what they want.

[Alistair Winter]

Kitsune Kaji, on 03 October 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Goodbye timberwolf. I thought I finaly had a k2 that could jump Now a 2 lbx-10 4 medium lasers with enough ammo is a pipe dream. Goodbye dual gauss and 4 lrm 15. Goodbye thinking the timberwolf was better then a catapult or jager. Now you are on par with the Summoner, the quickdraw and the dragon.....unless the quirks on two of them are amazing, then just the Summoner. Goodbye all the C-Bills I spent build you all that way and hello stockpile of weapons not sitting in you.

You've just explained why the Timber Wolf nerf is a good thing. I don't know if that was your intention.

Colby Boucher, on 04 October 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

OK, so apparently we can't make polls anymore. Anyways, here's what I think could be done for convergence, generally speaking.
Everyone is afraid of random dice rolls. I am too. We don't need a cone of fire, we just need non-pinpoint weapon convergence. Make it fixed to a specific distance for certain weapons in certain situations. In fact, use the same weapon values to kick the system in as heat scale (i.e. up to 6 medLasers can be pinpoint, up to 2 PPCs) This way heat scale can be removed for something that fixes the problem more directly and allows builds that go over these numbers to continue being effective with a certain degree of skill. The numbers can be tuned from there.

I kind of like it, but it doesn't really affect the dual gauss + dual ppc, unless you make it apply to groups of different weapons. For example, I think a mech with 4 large ballistic weapons should not have perfect convergence. In fact, I think perfect convergence is also a problem for mixed builds, like a Timber Wolf with 5 CERMLs and 2 big ballistic weapons.

I would prefer to see a universal system. There's no need to make it random, Just make the weapons converge really slowly, whether you have 2 gauss rifles or 6 AC5s. There's no dice roll, because the way the weapons converge would be entirely predictable. The guns traverse x number of degrees in y amount of time along a straight path.

[Xanquil]

The problem was back in beta when we were talking about heat scale it wasn't in relation to the being hit by 6PPCs at once. Heat scale was about how long it took to cool down using SHS was unreasonably slow, and how powerful DHS were going to be. The 6PPCs was about the same thing it is now (the "magic alpha") The conversations got lumped together, shaken around, and all in all misheard, which is why we have ghost heat.(and other odd changes)

[Casual Joker]

I would like to start out saying that with the growing pains that PGI has had to put up with they have been doing a great job. I admit I don't agree 100% with everything they have done or implemented, but to error is human and this is all undiscovered country for them as far as I can tell.

My proposal would be to put all this effort that people seem to want place in weapon convergence, anti-boating, jump jet nerfing and armor doubling and simplify all of this in to it's most basic element: heat. Heat is the major component for the entirety of Battletech (and for those that want to remind me that this isn't Battletech, it's a video game based on Battletech, get over it already). Heat is what shapes most if not all of the game play. Heat is the antagonist that is the driving force to fight against. "Run hot or die" just isn't a throw away word. In Battletech/Mechwarrior, it stands for something greatly significant.

I believe all of these issues (ghost heat and the doubled armor) could be easily solved by introducing something very similar to the traditional tabletop heat scale system. I couldn't even begin to explain how and i'm no programming expert, but what I think would help with the issues of alpha striking, pinpoint damage and just the constant adjustment to an ever-changing meta would be this.

Now i'm not saying this will solve all of our problems, but I think it's a first step in the right direction. Honestly though PGI, get a small group of die-hard Battletech tabletop players in a room and have a talk, it may shed a lot of light on what could be used to improve MWO and make it a great game.

[Colby Boucher]

You know, Skarfester, I actually think you're right to a point. But heat is sutch a fundemental thing that I seriously doubt PGI will do anything about it.

[EvilCow]

Russ Bullock, on 03 October 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

If someone wants to make a true impact on PGI with sized hard points - pick a mech with lots of variants and lay out all the sizes for all the hard points on all the variants

Then compare that to the current game and come up with a true audit of what builds would still exist, which ones would disappear.

Although it might help removes some "problem builds" I wonder how many very good builds it might remove.

This is an exercise I that PGI will not have time for in the next couple of months as we work on CW phase 2.

May I try to make impact?

I analyzed the most problematic mech in the inventory, the Stalker. I assumed to have 3 slots sizes per type. I also defined some rules to be applied when assigning slots. The process is not very different from what PGI did (see AMS rule).

The end result is amazingly similar to what we have but with 5 distinct, all useful, Stalker variants, each one with its role and very different from the others:

Slots:
ML = Missile Large - LRM20, LRM15, SRM6, SSRM6
MM = Missile Medium - LRM10, SRM4, SSRM4
MM = Missile Small - LRM5, SRM2, NARC
EL = Energy Large - PPC, ERPPC, LPL
EM = Energy Medium - LL, MPL
ES = Energy Small - ML, SL, SPL, TAG

Weapon rules:
1) One weapon per slot.
2) Smaller weapon can go in larger slots.
3) Bigger weapons cannot go in smaller slots.

Design Rules:
1) Assign strictly the weapons required to all variants.
2) Add differentiation if needed by increasing one or two slots, marked with (). Add slots only if required.
3) ECM if present in stock variant.
4) AMS slots as present in stock variant plus one.
5) Quirks added to add flavor.

STK-3F: Unique 4*LL capability plus missile backups.
H:
LA: ES (ES->EM) MM
RA: ES (ES->EM) MM
RT: EM ML AMS
LT: EM ML
CT:

STK-3H: Missile boat with limited self defense.
H:
LA: ES ES ML
RA: ES ES ML
RT: ML AMS
LT: ML
CT:

STK-4N: Mixed energy and missiles.
H:
LA: ES ES (+MM)
RA: ES ES MM
RT: EM ML AMS
LT: EM ML
CT:

STK-5M: Different mix of energy and missiles.
H:
LA: ES ES MM
RA: ES ES MM
RT: ML AMS
LT: ML (MS->ML)
CT: EM

STK-5S: Unique with PPC/LPL ability and dual AMS
H:
LA: ES ES MM
RA: ES ES MM
RT: EL ML AMS AMS
LT: EL ML
CT:

If there is interest in this approach I could try redesigning more mechs using the same rule set. The advantages are clear:
1) More unique variants, there would be a more strong reason to own all of them.
2) Issues with PPCs magically disappeared.
3) All the variants are interesting and about equally useful, quirks can be added for further differentiation.

Edited by EvilCow, 06 October 2014 - 09:56 AM.

[Tastian]

Russ Bullock, on 03 October 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

If someone wants to make a true impact on PGI with sized hard points - pick a mech with lots of variants and lay out all the sizes for all the hard points on all the variants

Then compare that to the current game and come up with a true audit of what builds would still exist, which ones would disappear.

Although it might help removes some "problem builds" I wonder how many very good builds it might remove.

This is an exercise I that PGI will not have time for in the next couple of months as we work on CW phase 2.

I'm doing this here:


http://mwomercs.com/...29#entry3792729

[Koniving]

Colby Boucher, on 04 October 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

OK, so apparently we can't make polls anymore. Anyways, here's what I think could be done for convergence, generally speaking.

Everyone is afraid of random dice rolls. I am too. We don't need a cone of fire, we just need non-pinpoint weapon convergence. Make it fixed to a specific distance for certain weapons in certain situations. In fact, use the same weapon values to kick the system in as heat scale (i.e. up to 6 medLasers can be pinpoint, up to 2 PPCs) This way heat scale can be removed for something that fixes the problem more directly and allows builds that go over these numbers to continue being effective with a certain degree of skill. The numbers can be tuned from there.

For instance, if you were to fire 3 PPCs at once, then the convergence on the weapons would act as though your target was 1000 meters away, no matter what the distance. Can all the weapons still hit? Yes, and predictably so. They just won't all hit the same spot. Same would go for 2 AC/20s and whatever else is effected by ghost heat right now. Unlike ghost heat, ballistics would affected as equally as everything else.

In addition, the effect should kick in whenever more than 6 weapons are fired no matter what the weapons are.

With this system, small weapons would barely be punished, builds would not be artificially destroyed by heat, and there is a simple "fluff" explanation, despite it not being "cannon"... firing so many weapons at once overloads the Mech's targeting systems.

I'm open to criticism, and expect it.

I do like the heat-adjustments in it. Though it's kind of an overzealous attempt (the convergence behavior) when it does an adjustment to long range, not to mention if your target is at 1,000 meters that adjustment has become pointless. In any other situation it'd remove any inclination to alpha strike (which isn't a bad thing, but...)

On that note, lets try something else.
Take any mech. Go into third person.
Move. Shoot.
Notice something new?
Go into first person.
Move. Shoot.
Notice the lack of something?

Movement, sway, etc., doesn't exist in first person. Your aim is perfect and it glides like a cinematic camera with no relation to anything. You simply exist.

In third person, every step you take, every jolt you receive, every adjustment in speed, it all affects your aim. You still have 100% perfect pinpoint and instant convergence... but now to hit exactly where you want you have to either stop or work with the movement of your mech to line up that perfect shot and hit.

Now try it on your favorite mechs. Tell me what you think.