132 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Deathlike, on 06 October 2014 - 11:10 PM, said:

Actually, the other mech that can do it is the Shadowhawk... but not the 2K.

The difference is that most builds that use said head missile hardpoint are Streakboats, SRM boats, or LRM boats... even if we end putting 2 of them on it (they also happen to have a CT missile hardpoint to boot, minus the 2K).




I'm not saying the CTF-4X is a good example, but rather that it isn't the priority due to obvious design decisions. Putting 1 SRM4 on the head for an energy heavy mech is a waste of something that could be used for more DHS... and ALL energy heavy mechs need DHS.

Then you don't have to use the head slot. Replace the SRM4+ ammo with bigger engine or more DHS. Even without the head slot, the GHR can still zombie better than the BK due to CT energy slot vs head energy slot.

Besides, the three builds I can up with the GHR have plenty of heat dissipation, even when including the SRM4 + Quad JJs. Note I am using Standard engine just in case, but the GHR is slim enough to be potentially XL friendly.

El Bandito, on 06 October 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

I'll use CTF 1X as an example. Imagine one of the ERLL/LPL is in the CT and JJs are represented by AMS ammo, and SRM4 + ammo is represented by AC5 ammo. I am using 280 engine since it is the default engine rating for the GHR. I am also subtracting 3% heat efficiency from what is shown in Smurfy since the 1X cannot equip SRM4, and SRM4 requires heat.

Keep in mind that the SRM 4 is completely optional and with CT slot, the GHR can still zombie far better than the BK even without SRM4.

The Laser Hopper

2 ERLL + 3 ML + SRM4 + 1 ton ammo + 4 JJs. 44% heat efficiency. Runs very cool.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...665a9d50a9cd712

The PPC Hopper.

2 PPC + 3 ML+ SRM4 + 1 ton ammo + 4 JJs. 34% heat efficiency. Plenty manageable.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aeeab39f88e46dc

The Wub Hopper.

2 LPL + 3 MPL + SRM4 + 1 ton ammo + 4 JJs. 37% heat efficiency. Plenty manageable.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a519e88a8a76b97

Edited by El Bandito, 06 October 2014 - 11:30 PM.

[Deathlike]

Let me reference a point I've repeated many times... YOU CANNOT GUARANTEE HITBOXES outside of obvious designs like "large arms" or "shield arms". It's bad enough we make this mistake for the Awesome as it is.

You can do technically "better" builds on the Quickdraw anyways, with more speed and mostly equivalent energy.

Your "equivalent" first build.
QKD-5K

Seriously though, I personally think there's a certain chance of disappointment for the Grasshopper, just as much as the Black Knight. The Vindicator has taught us that already.

Edited by Deathlike, 06 October 2014 - 11:48 PM.

[Escef]

Deathlike, on 06 October 2014 - 11:20 PM, said:

Let me put it in better terms...

Let's use the Quickdraw-5K as the best "example" for lots of energy hardpoints, and a missile hardpoint.

I suggest people actually put together AND run good builds using that missile hardpoint and builds not with it.

You'll quickly find out that the tonnage is BEST used for more DHS and larger lasers and/or PPCs with most of the damage dealt by Medium Lasers. The Missile hardpoint is effectively "a novelty slot" generally speaking, unless you think a 6 Med Laser/MPL build is a good idea.

Let's say you are right. And you may very well be.

Grasshopper vs. Black Knight... Jumping energy boat, or 5 ton heavier energy boat that doesn't jump?

[Deathlike]

Escef, on 06 October 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

Let's say you are right. And you may very well be.

Grasshopper vs. Black Knight... Jumping energy boat, or 5 ton heavier energy boat that doesn't jump?

I usually lean towards jumping energy boat, but given the hardpoints, I simply like the non-jumping heavier energy boat better. This is coming someone who did actually like the TDR-5SS AND the AWS-8Q (and not just the QKD-5K).

Edited by Deathlike, 07 October 2014 - 12:05 AM.

[El Bandito]

Deathlike, on 06 October 2014 - 11:48 PM, said:

Let me reference a point I've repeated many times... YOU CANNOT GUARANTEE HITBOXES outside of obvious designs like "large arms" or "shield arms". It's bad enough we make this mistake for the Awesome as it is.

You can do technically "better" builds on the Quickdraw anyways, with more speed and mostly equivalent energy.

Your "equivalent" first build.
QKD-5K

Seriously though, I personally think there's a certain chance of disappointment for the Grasshopper, just as much as the Black Knight. The Vindicator has taught us that already.

That's NOT equivalent build since you used XL engine. If I use XL engine then my GHR build will be far more heat efficient and runs at 86.6 kph. That goes the same for all the other builds I had created.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...afd2f328118efb7

Escef, on 06 October 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

Let's say you are right. And you may very well be.

Grasshopper vs. Black Knight... Jumping energy boat, or 5 ton heavier energy boat that doesn't jump?

JJ is no brainer. My Dragon Slayer, even with its mobility nerfs, performs well enough thanks to its JJs.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 October 2014 - 12:13 AM.

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 07 October 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:

That's NOT equivalent build since you used XL engine. If I use XL engine then my GHR build will be far more heat efficient and runs at 86.6 kph. That goes the same for all the other builds I had created.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...afd2f328118efb7

It can't be perfectly "equivalent" (STD vs XL). If you're running a Quickdraw, XL is the way to go... unless you believe the Quickdraw Champion build is a good idea (because, it's not).

Besides, XL on the Grasshopper would invalidate the whole point of the head+CT zombie discussion.

[NUK3]

By now the vote's in favor of the Black Knight - by 33 votes. Of 4.000 votes total. I'm for the BKN. Just because I believe that PGI will make it really beautiful.

[Escef]

Deathlike, on 07 October 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

Besides, XL on the Grasshopper would invalidate the whole point of the head+CT zombie discussion.

That's a reasonable point.

However, with a GHR you should be able to set it up with the stock engine, endo, 2xLPL, 3xML,1xSRM4 (1 ton ammo), 4xJJ, 17xDHS, and max practical armor. If you cut the LPLs down to standard LLs you can easily up the engine to a 300 and, if they inflated JJ numbers, add JJ #5.

Black Knight with a maxed out XL? I run a couple of 360 XL Orions (because I'm like that), and I've got one with 20 DHS, endo, 4xLL, 2xStreak2 (1 ton ammo), and 432/462 armor. Pulling the missiles for 4 more tons? Maybe upgrade a LL to a PPC, cut one of the larges and go for 3xMPL? Think I'm missing a ton, what do we have left for crits? I guess it's workable. So, PPC, 2xLL, 3xMPL, with the vulnerability of an XL?

Depending on hitboxes, either could be solid middle tier mechs... Or absolutely horrible.

Which would you rather see in game not knowing the hitboxes?

Edited by Escef, 07 October 2014 - 12:42 AM.

[El Bandito]

Deathlike, on 07 October 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

Besides, XL on the Grasshopper would invalidate the whole point of the head+CT zombie discussion.

Fair enough, but even you can see the amount of firepower the Grasshopper can pack while being a Zombie. If the upcoming Heavy hit boxes turns out to be bad, I'd rather have the better zombie mech.

My dream of CTF-1X with JJ will be possible then.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 October 2014 - 02:08 AM.

[Deathlike]

Escef, on 07 October 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:

That's a reasonable point.

However, with a GHR you should be able to set it up with the stock engine, endo, 2xLPL, 3xML,1xSRM4 (1 ton ammo), 4xJJ, 17xDHS, and max practical armor. If you cut the LPLs down to standard LLs you can easily up the engine to a 300 and, if they inflated JJ numbers, add JJ #5.

Black Knight with a maxed out XL? I run a couple of 360 XL Orions (because I'm like that), and I've got one with 20 DHS, endo, 4xLL, 2xStreak2 (1 ton ammo), and 432/462 armor. Pulling the missiles for 4 more tons? Maybe upgrade a LL to a PPC, cut one of the larges and go for 3xMPL? Think I'm missing a ton, what do we have left for crits? I guess it's workable. So, PPC, 2xLL, 3xMPL, with the vulnerability of an XL?

Depending on hitboxes, either could be solid middle tier mechs... Or absolutely horrible.

Which would you rather see in game not knowing the hitboxes?

TBH, I expect a larger STD engine on the Black Knight (we're talking STD 325 realistically) instead of a large XL engine. Since energy builds tend to allow for more tonnage consuming options (and occasionally removing endo from the equation).

The biggest negative of the Awesome-8Q (or most Awesomes in general IMO) is the lack of larger engine options (going past 300). It is assured by design that the BK would have a bit more wiggle room there.

Without knowing the hitboxes, I still like the BK, because we can reference points in time that large arms on a mech can be used as shields.. and in a particular case... the Centurion. I cannot be assured of that with the Grasshopper.

El Bandito, on 07 October 2014 - 02:04 AM, said:

Fair enough, but even you can see the amount of firepower the Grasshopper can pack while being a Zombie. If the upcoming Heavy hit boxes turns out to be bad, I'd rather have the better zombie mech.

My dream of CTF-1X with JJ will be possible then.

Well, it is possible to screw that up by having a large CT hitbox. Even the hitbox change to the Centurion has increased its CT size to a far more easily coreable level (people have been legging them less as a result, despite the leg hitboxes having not been changed much). This has had some influence on my opinion on the Centurion since then.

[Almond Brown]

Escef, on 07 October 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:

stuff

Which would you rather see in game not knowing the hitboxes?

The one that gets the MOST votes. That is how Polls work right?

OR

Send me $50.00 RL cash (PM for info) and you can BUY my Vote. I can only reverse my current vote though and can;t tell how I voted already. That would not be the Democratic way right?

P.S. Usually a Pint of Rum would have done the trick, but what with inflation and all. LOL!

Edited by Almond Brown, 07 October 2014 - 08:53 AM.

[Utilyan]

Lefty Lucy, on 03 October 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

Two weeks after the UBM is released there will be a thread titled, "How come we never see any Urbanmechs?"

Outside of use as a BV-filler the urbanmech is trash on TT, it would be even worse in MWO, and what used to be a joke has been blown way out of proportions by a user-base that spams too many memes.

BS. Urbanmech is good. It wasn't trash on TT, it did its job. The problem is only going to be for that premie meta-noob try-hard mf who can't think for his damn self.


Urbanmech is high skillcap. That's only talking about a stock-urbie.


Folks have this magical idea that all the speed advantage as a light he could have had went no where. I could quite easily claim more hard points then all then all the lights.


Don't like the 12-ton Cannon? sorry. Let me replace with 12 medium lasers. Too hot? let me replace with 24 machine guns


Dropship mode 240-ton limits? Don't worry bro I got TWO LANCES of Urbanmechs That's EIGHT Urbanmechs armed to the teeth. that's 96 medium lasers behind DRAGON thick armor, Jump Jets, souped up engines, endo, and sweet ol' ECM.


Do you know what a lance of Urbanmech's looks like? The 4th one is a sniper hiding inside a building with a Gauss Cannon.

[Escef]

Almond Brown, on 07 October 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

The one that gets the MOST votes. That is how Polls work right?

We're debating in an attempt to sway votes. Are you trying to say that you don't want to vote?