20 replies to this topic

[Monky]

Since we're about to do an overhaul of IS mechs, which consist of all the (C) mechs except the 'stock' clan mechs which are available that way to 'try before you buy' since its a different technology base, I would like to request a major update to champion mechs that follows a few simple but effective criteria;

1. Update (C) loadouts to be compatible with the weapon quirks being put in place

2. Have community voting on the exact loadouts so we can avoid having poorly placed ammo, unpopular/ineffective weapons, and XL engines in mechs that are not generally considered smart to put XL's in (this is subjective to community opinion of course)

3. Have a review set up semi-yearly (basically every 6 months) to take into account balance changes, changes in community thinking, and general 'dust off' of ineffective or low effectiveness (C) builds to keep a fresh and effective level of (C) mechs for new and experienced players alike.

Current list of (C) mechs for IS;

Spider - SDR 5K(C)
Firestarter - FS9-S(C)
Jenner - JR7-F(C)
Cicada - CDA-2A(C)
Blackjack - BJ-1(C)
Centurion - CN9-A(C)
Hunchback - HBK-4P(C)
Trebuchet - TBT-7M(C)
Kintaro - KTO-18(C)
Shadowhawk - SHD-2H(C)
Dragon - DRG-5N(C)
Quickdraw - QKD-4G(C)
Catapult - CPLT-A1(C)
Cataphract - CTF-3D(C)
Orion - ON1-K(C)
Victor - VTR-9S(C)
Stalker - STK-3F(C)
Highlander - HGN-733C(C)
Atlas - AS7-RS(C)

I am not requesting this right out the gate, as we will need to see the effectiveness of various loadouts once the dust settles. I suggest a January or February date barring any exceptional changes to the tier list so that we can get relevant and functional builds on these champion mechs. All in all the community can shoulder most of the 'what do we put in it' work and the development cost is just changing the loadouts in the code and reaping the data from the community (which is fairly light weight all things considered). In exchange for this time investment PGI gets a stronger new player experience, more reputable (C) mechs which encourage player retention since they do not feel unable to find a suitable mech with 'try before you buy', and more functional (C) mechs overall for all players.

Further, with a semi-annual review/update if mechs are found to be just fine overall, they do not need to be considered for a particular update with a simple metric evaluation and community up/down vote. This allows additional (C) mechs to be added down the line without seriously increasing workload as time goes on.

Edit - added the new Trebuchet champion

Edited by Monky, 07 October 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[SuperNobody]

Do people really buy Champion mechs and leave them as is? There are almost no Champion mechs that I would leave stock. The only reason I would buy a Champion is for the bonus, not the loadout. And, even then, the bonus isn't worth much especially once you have it mastered.

The customization aspect of the game is one of the most fun parts. I don't think we need any of these suggestions, except #2 isn't bad and was kind of already done for a few mechs.

[Monky]

The point of updating the loadouts isnt so people 'leave them as-is' but so that people can expect a reasonable chance of success when trying one given the shifting meta, SuperNobody.

For clarification - if you are not able to tell if the mech is effective because it has a poor loadout in the current environment, what incentive do you have to invest your cbills/mc into the mech?

Edited by Monky, 03 October 2014 - 11:26 AM.

[Mothykins]

SuperNobody, on 03 October 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

Do people really buy Champion mechs and leave them as is? There are almost no Champion mechs that I would leave stock. The only reason I would buy a Champion is for the bonus, not the loadout. And, even then, the bonus isn't worth much especially once you have it mastered.

The customization aspect of the game is one of the most fun parts. I don't think we need any of these suggestions, except #2 isn't bad and was kind of already done for a few mechs.

It's more that these are what we give folks as "trial" chassis. I: They should represent the better builds, or at least something pretty decent.

That Dragon? No. Nor the KTO. Bad. Badbadbad.

[Blackscreen]

The problem with musical loadouts would be the players believing they were "ripped off" should one of the champion mechs all of a sudden come with better equipment than configured when they purchased it. Sounds like a CS nightmare.

[Hoax415]

We need more Champion builds on par with these:
Kintaro - KTO-18(C)
Shadowhawk - SHD-2H(C)
Victor - VTR-9S(C)

Those are all decent and can perform in the elo ghetto underhive. I haven't spent time with all of them but I can say with certainty that these are awful and need to be updated/removed:
Orion - ON1-K(C)
Atlas - AS7-RS(C)

I'd put the Highlander on there but who knows if it'll make some kind of sense when they fix JJ's and remove the negative quirks.

Blackscreen, on 03 October 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

The problem with musical loadouts would be the players believing they were "ripped off" should one of the champion mechs all of a sudden come with better equipment than configured when they purchased it. Sounds like a CS nightmare.

That's silly. They agreed to pay what they paid for what they got. Now someone else can pay for something else. That's how the world works, its hardly a CS nightmare.

Edited by Hoax415, 03 October 2014 - 11:43 AM.

[Monky]

Blackscreen, on 03 October 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

The problem with musical loadouts would be the players believing they were "ripped off" should one of the champion mechs all of a sudden come with better equipment than configured when they purchased it. Sounds like a CS nightmare.

I don't honestly foresee anyone being peeved about a mech coming with a different loadout since people already strip the loadouts and replace in the current environment.

[Karpundir]

What Monky is suggesting makes sense as these Trial (C) mechs are the first ones a new player gets to try out. If they get stomped in their first 10 matches, they feel that there is a huge learning curve and thereby leave due to frustration. By offering "competitive" or "meta" trial mechs to be bought as Champion mechs, there are two-fold benefits:

1. The new player sticks around, thus the game grows in population and adds a potential new revenue source from Mech Bays, Hero Mechs, new release packs, PT and cosmetic items.
2. More new players find the Champion mech more appealing to buy, since it doesn't "suck" and gets an instant XP ramp. Hell, maybe even give a 10% C-Bill bonus as further encouragement. Mechs and upgrades are expensive for the new player, so why not help them amass cash faster. Eventually, they need more bays and that leads to more revenue for future re-investment into content for MWO.

Remember, the more time and money a player invests in a game, the more likely they will stick around and spend more money. How many of us here since Closed Beta are prime examples of this? I say a pretty good number, based on the Clan Invasion purchases.

Edited by Karpundir, 03 October 2014 - 01:12 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

I would like first time players to see champions based on their role on the battlefield

• Scout
  
• Brawler
  
• Direct Fire Support
  
• Indirect Fire Support
  
• Generalist

with specialty "champions" which possibly include additional skill climb roles

• Kite
  
• Spotter (Narc -or- Tag)
  
• Dogfighter
  
• Jump Sniper
  
• Electronic Warfare

Click on each of these "buttons" would display the appropriate trial 'mechs.




This would require significant rework of the trial mechs in UI 2.X but I think it would help with player retention. Essentially a new player would get the gist of many of the roles "at a glance" and explore them. If they find something they really like sooner, the game can grab them.

This also gives meaningful direction for later on when they start customizing their 'mechs, for better or worse.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 03 October 2014 - 02:48 PM.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

Kin3ticX, on 03 October 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

I would like first time players to see champions based on their role on the battlefield

• Scout
  
• Brawler
  
• Direct Fire Support
  
• Indirect Fire Support
  
• Generalist

with specialty "champions" which possibly include additional skill climb roles

• Kite
  
• Spotter (Narc -or- Tag)
  
• Dogfighter
  
• Jump Sniper
  
• Electronic Warfare

Click on each of these "buttons" would display the appropriate trial 'mechs.





This would require significant rework of the trial mechs in UI 2.X but I think it would help with player retention. Essentially a new player would get the gist of many of the roles "at a glance" and explore them. If they find something they really like sooner, the game can grab them.

This also gives meaningful direction for later on when they start customizing their 'mechs, for better or worse.

this is actually a very good idea

[Monky]

I like the idea Kinetix, I'm kind of hoping the quirks will angle mechs toward that kind of thing in the first place, builds can then make a reasonable attempt at solidifying that role if its a viable role.

[MrBlonde42]

Good ideas. Just because I bought a (C) mech doesn't mean the (C) ver. 2 is the same. Naming them based on their defined roles would help new players as well. The Cent A(C) is left alone because it defines the "Zombie Brawler" play style. Cataphract 3D(C) load out just screams I'm a new player, so I tend to target those when the opportunity comes.

[Monky]

They could even categorize mechs more specifically or add descriptions to the buy menu so you had an idea what was going on. Lots of possibilities.

[SaltBeef]

The Atlas RS ( C ) is the best of the Bunch.

[Deathlike]

Cavale, on 03 October 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

It's more that these are what we give folks as "trial" chassis. I: They should represent the better builds, or at least something pretty decent.

That Dragon? No. Nor the KTO. Bad. Badbadbad.

The Dragon was a community event for mech building that happened a long time ago (1.5 years or so ago). I'm not sure how you could do better for a 5N honestly.

What they REALLY should do is fix/adjust some of those mechs... because L2M (Learn 2 Mechlab).

For instance, the Kintaro-18 Champion has CASE, with an XL engine. Just brilliant!

Also, the Stalker-3F Champion has an XL engine... that's great... if you're not a walking target practice dummy. It's only good when... you actually get good (and learn what XL means, let alone how to utilize TAG with LRMs to counter ECM).

Then there's the headscratchers like the Cataphract-3D with the ammo in the CT (it's not safe) really or the Quickdraw-4G (besides being a bad mech, it has a STD engine and extraordinarily vulnerable on the right side) being a mech that'd someone would have to teach torso-twisting to (like the Hunchback-4P, but worse).

[Monky]

Deathlike, on 03 October 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

The Dragon was a community event for mech building that happened a long time ago (1.5 years or so ago). I'm not sure how you could do better for a 5N honestly.

What they REALLY should do is fix/adjust some of those mechs... because L2M (Learn 2 Mechlab).

For instance, the Kintaro-18 Champion has CASE, with an XL engine. Just brilliant!

Also, the Stalker-3F Champion has an XL engine... that's great... if you're not a walking target practice dummy. It's only good when... you actually get good (and learn what XL means, let alone how to utilize TAG with LRMs to counter ECM).

Then there's the headscratchers like the Cataphract-3D with the ammo in the CT (it's not safe) really or the Quickdraw-4G (besides being a bad mech, it has a STD engine and extraordinarily vulnerable on the right side) being a mech that'd someone would have to teach torso-twisting to (like the Hunchback-4P, but worse).

This is basically why I suggest having the community vet builds. There have been tremendously questionable or verifiably bad decisions by people who are basically unaware of how the game works. These decisions are then put onto mechs that new players are given as their only options until they can buy a mech.

The Dragon 5N is a great example of both why we need an update and why community generation of this kind of content is a good idea - it worked fairly well at the time and the Dragon was already on the down-slope, but was later made more difficult/less new player friendly with the Gauss charge. Now it is completely outclassed, and looking to quirks to save it. With these quirks should come a community review to rebuild these once at least acceptably capable mechs and reintroduce them into the environment once we know where the balance sits.

[Vassago Rain]

A lot of these were made by super pros at NGNG, Garth, are simply very old, or all of them. My favorites are the 3D, RS, and the stalker. Why would you inflict such things on your new players?

[Elizander]

I certainly don't agree with a lot of the trial mech builds that we have and I've stated that previously. Perhaps some of the design philosophies were to make them newbie friendly (auto lock on weapons and LRMs and Lasers) over weapons that are slightly harder to use for new players (projectiles).

I was actually thinking it would be best to have champion versions of all variants and use those for the beginner packs so that everything will have a benefit and not just be a standard variant.

Hero + Champion Variant 1 + Champion Variant 2 will make people who pay spend less time leveling the variants so they can enjoy their Hero mech sooner and will make the 3 mech package a better overall deal over the plain C-bill ones.

Imagine if the Clan Mech Packs looked like this:

Timber Wolf Prime (I) - +30% C-bills
Timber Wolf C (C) - +30% XP
Timber Wolf S (C) - +30% XP

...rather than just having two plain variants.

People will get the regular variants for C-bills later, but it won't diminish the value of the champion variants that were give out by the pack.

With regards to the actual loadout though, things change over time. I guess as long as these champions have:

1) A decent engine
2) Double Heat Sinks
3) Endo/Ferro/Artemis where applicable

...then the weapons don't matter so much as long as it's not outright silly.

It might also be asking for too much (and I don't know if UI2.0 supports it without spamming the shop with mechs, but anything's possible with programming) but I believe that any regular variant purchased with MC should automatically be the mech version with +30% xp even if it does not have a different loadout.

Edited by Elizander, 06 October 2014 - 12:24 AM.

[Monky]

Those are some interesting ideas about the XP bonuses on purchased mechs, I've always wanted the ability to 'hero-ize' my non hero mechs as an equivalent.

The thing about (C) mechs is their loadouts can be changed later on without really disenfranchising anyone, so long as the attempt is made to keep the loadout relevant to the game we're playing at the time.

[Revis Volek]

You cannot go to crazy with any mech that is purchased with Real Money of the P2W crowd may get unruly.