348 replies to this topic

[Belorion]

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

You've just described the Clan AC you know?
They fire multiple shell one after the other. 4 for the AC/20, all dealing 5 damage.
Yet, the IS Sphere one don't do that. What what difference would it make if they don't have a distinct feature?

Does there need to be a difference?

Edited by Belorion, 03 October 2014 - 01:55 PM.

[Hoax415]

Adiuvo, on 03 October 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

I really don't consider pinpoint damage a problem.

Its THE problem with the game. Pinpoint alphas have resulted in the following changes that some/many/most hate:
-Gauss charge up
-All the PPC nerfs
-Ghost Heat
-All the laser duration and the nerfs that have left IS pulse worthless
-Doubling Armor
-Quirks to increase internal or armor values

If pinpoint alpha fit the gameplay we wouldn't have to continually nerf every mech or weapon system that takes advantage of it. But it doesn't fit the gameplay.

Russ has said repeatedly that he's not comfortable with how low TTK is. But its that low entirely because of pinpoint alpha.

The only problem MWO's core gameplay has that is anywhere near as pervasive is the heat scale.

Edited by Hoax415, 03 October 2014 - 02:01 PM.

[KuroNyra]

Belorion, on 03 October 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Does there need to be a difference?

Yes, both IS and Clan mech have different kind of weapon's. Giving them there own kind of play style. While the Clanner weapon dealing damage over a longer period of time.
The IS are making damage in a shorter time.

There were intended to be like that in game. Removing the AC/## difference would start to destroy the difference of playstyle.

[Ultimax]

Adiuvo, on 03 October 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

I really don't consider pinpoint damage a problem.

Yeah I agree, I just don't see an issue with it in the game right now.


Honestly people need to get over it, your mech will get killed sometimes.

If you are killed all the time, that's a problem on your end.

[Eddrick]

Having 70% accuracy and having it miss 5 times in a row is not good for competition. Especialy, when money is on the line. I have misses with a 70% accuracy miss 5 times in a row on a regular bacis in an RPG I play every now and then.

Tyring to depend on luck to get you to hit what you need to hit where you need it, is not something you want when $250,000+ are on the line. Tournaments have cash prizes that big or more. If you are depending on luck to get that shot you fired to hit what you need it to hit. You might as well play the lottery.

[RetroActive]

I don't see the issue with pinpoint damage. Most pinpoint naysayers reference realism in their argument when nothing in this game is realistic.

I would enjoy this game much less if my shots went somewhere other than where I aimed.

[zagibu]

I don't like randomness either, but instant convergence (and unrealistic convergence like jager's dual AC20 cross-eyed focus at 10m distance) is a problem. If there was a minimal distance for convergence, based on the focused distance and the position of the weapon's hardpoint, light mechs would be buffed immensely, being basically able to hug legs wihout fear of being hit by two AC/20. Then maybe when the servers would be full of lights again, other players would start going back into their mediums to hunt them. And we could have at least a crude semblance of role warfare (lights beat assaults, mediums beat lights, heavies beat mediums, assaults beat heavies).

[Clit Beastwood]

Adiuvo, on 03 October 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

I really don't consider pinpoint damage a problem.

Agreeeeeeed!!

People that play this game managed to click the mechwarrior online icon twice!
I remember this in-drop, then watch people waving lasers around and shooting everything but enemy mechs and have to wonder... how'd they launch the game?

RetroActive, on 03 October 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

I don't see the issue with pinpoint damage. Most pinpoint naysayers reference realism in their argument when nothing in this game is realistic.

I would enjoy this game much less if my shots went somewhere other than where I aimed.

The people that complain don't realize the amount of experience and practice that can go into it. I go to the shooting range at least 4 hours a month. I do target practice in MWO 1-2 hours a week. Someone who doesn't put in that time shouldn't be able to decide to make my weapons less accurate because they're too lazy to practice.

[KamikazeRat]

this problem is not as drastic as it was in the past...alot of the cheese builds that really take advantage of the pinpoint are next to useless (9erppc dire wolf for example, immense damage, twice)

but the problem is there and it is the reason for alot of the nerfing and balance issues we've had. best balance(i don't dare call it a solution) would be 1 weapon system is fired...it is exactly on target, multiples have a PREDICABLE spread, either through convergence, or a "recoil" like system (spreading crosshairs) i really don't want a blank COF mechanism, for those long-shots with a single gauss rifle i want it to go where i tell it to go...but if im firing 2, yeah, i'd be ok with gauss slug #2 hitting very close, but not exactly where #1 went as long as #1 still hits where i was aiming.

Edited by KamikazeRat, 03 October 2014 - 02:27 PM.

[Hoax415]

Eddrick, on 03 October 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

is not something you want when $250,000+ are on the line.

Whatever game you are playing it isn't MWO. If you want to base gameplay in MWO around what esports pros playing in $250k tournaments would want... I don't know, there just isn't any middle ground to engage in discussion with someone coming from that perspective. Its just so far from reality.

As to this thread in general.

First of all nobody is trying to make shots that are center mass miss. That's a straw man and not a result of any sane cone of fire, recoil or convergence system in any video game that I've played.

The idea is to prevent someone from hitting the exact pinpoint location when firing multiple "main gun" weapon systems.

Chain fire 8 PPC's one every <time unit TBD>? All 8 are pinpoint accurate.

Fire an 8 PPC alpha? Completely different result. Now you won't hit all 8 in the exact same location. All of them will fire in the direction you are shooting though so none of this "I don't want 20% of my shots to just hit the ground in front of me" style bullshit responses pls.

Fire an 8 MLAS alpha? Maybe its still pinpoint. Maybe they spread a little bit, less than 8 PPC's would certainly. Who knows. Its a system that would have to be tested and balanced with an eye towards fun gameplay.

Edited by Hoax415, 03 October 2014 - 02:30 PM.

[Clit Beastwood]

Hoax415, on 03 October 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Fire an 8 PPC alpha? Completely different result. Now you won't hit all 8 in the exact same location.
Fire an 8 MLAS alpha? Maybe its still pinpoint. Maybe they spread a little bit, less than 8 PPC's would. Who knows. It would have to be tested and balanced with an eye towards fun gameplay.

Why? Lasers don't have recoil. A pcc wouldn't either. Same with a gauss.

[KuroNyra]

RetroActive, on 03 October 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

I don't see the issue with pinpoint damage. Most pinpoint naysayers reference realism in their argument when nothing in this game is realistic.

I would enjoy this game much less if my shots went somewhere other than where I aimed.

Ballistic Drop? That's kinda realistic. Weapons making heat when they are used? Also realistic. (Put your hand on the canon of a rifle after firing it a few time. Tell me, is it cold?)

I'm not talking about spreading shotgun like. But some shifting who are believable, but also NOT game breaking. It wouldn't take 5 second to get the accuracy to 100% again but more like one second at most, just the time needed for the weapon the recalibrate.

Hoax415, on 03 October 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Whatever game you are playing it isn't MWO. If you want to base gameplay in MWO around what esports pros playing in $250k tournaments would want... I don't know, there just isn't any middle ground to engage in discussion with someone coming from that perspective. Its just so far from reality.

As to this thread in general.

First of all nobody is trying to make shots that are center mass miss. That's a straw man and not a result of any sane cone of fire, recoil or convergence system in any video game that I've played.

The idea is to prevent someone from hitting the exact pinpoint location when firing multiple weapon systems.

Chain fire 8 PPC's one every <time unit TBD>? All 8 are pinpoint accurate.

Fire an 8 PPC alpha? Completely different result. Now you won't hit all 8 in the exact same location.

Ho gosh, someone who finally get the idea of that thread. I was starting to desesperate seeing the multitude of answer about random stupid Cone of Fire.
Seriously did you tought I was asking to make your gun able to miss a target at 2 meter with your AC/20 like in World of Tank?!

Fierostetz, on 03 October 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

Why? Lasers don't have recoil. A pcc wouldn't either. Same with a gauss.

A PPC can have a recoil, we are talking about a Particule Projector Canon. Firing an immense wave of energy in one big shot.
Of course it can create some recoil.

Edited by KuroNyra, 03 October 2014 - 02:31 PM.

[Judge Redeemer]

Fierostetz, on 03 October 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

Why? Lasers don't have recoil. A pcc wouldn't either. Same with a gauss.

Read the text first then talk
http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon
Despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil.

[Hoax415]

Fierostetz, on 03 October 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

Why? Lasers don't have recoil. A pcc wouldn't either. Same with a gauss.

Did I say the word recoil? I'm not interested in what you call the system or the particulars of how it works. Just that firing multiple PPC's at once becomes less pinpoint accurate than firing a single PPC. I'm talking about a system where firing two PPC's and a Gauss at once is no longer ALWAYS SMARTER EVERY TIME than firing the PPC's and then the Gauss. I'm going to stop with the examples there.

But lasers don't have recoil!

LoL no ****.

What about your mech's targeting systems or whatever it is that lets you fire all these weapons located all over your mech and puts the shots towards your crosshair?

You think the computers or whatever magic it is that does all that work for you doing a better job when they don't have to calculate as many firing angles is just too unrealistic for our giant walking robot game?

Give me a break.

Edited by Hoax415, 03 October 2014 - 02:44 PM.

[Adiuvo]

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

If you want to destroy them, you don't really have a choice.
And yes, it does happen with the lasers too. a guy using 4 medium laser will always hit the exact same location for the laser, and most of the time. It's where he intend to. Heck, my Dire Wolf is boating multiple style of laser, large, pulse and medium and they are absolutly devastating against my opponent. Even if they are torso twisting.

If you want to destroy them, play them at 270m where they're going to have a problem hitting you and you won't. Again, basics of counterplay.

Lasers you have time to react to... by torso twisting.

Mcgral18, on 03 October 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

It's the root of every balancing nightmare in MWO, bar the splash damage of 15+ damage per SRM.


It's lead to gauss charge, ghost heat, small and med lasers getting their heat boosted. HoverJets™ are a direct result of it, although it had its own share of issues.

Hoax415, on 03 October 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

Its THE problem with the game. Pinpoint alphas have resulted in the following changes that some/many/most hate:
-Gauss charge up
-All the PPC nerfs
-Ghost Heat
-All the laser duration and the nerfs that have left IS pulse worthless
-Doubling Armor
-Quirks to increase internal or armor values

If pinpoint alpha fit the gameplay we wouldn't have to continually nerf every mech or weapon system that takes advantage of it. But it doesn't fit the gameplay.

Russ has said repeatedly that he's not comfortable with how low TTK is. But its that low entirely because of pinpoint alpha.

The only problem MWO's core gameplay has that is anywhere near as pervasive is the heat scale.

Pinpoint damage *is* a core, fundamental facet of gameplay. Your weapons are accurate - that is where they are balanced! If they are not accurate the validity of high heat builds goes out the window, gameplay becomes less about skill, and RNG will become a factor in a game where very little already exists.

Predictability is a large part of what makes this game as good as it is. If you know weapons, you'll know how much damage they deal. You'll know their effective ranges. You know what mechs can mount what, and where their weapons are located. Because this game is so reliant on the parts system and the lack of a static HP pool, accuracy is more important here than other games. The relatively long weapon cooldowns play a part as well.

Implementing cone of fire would overall make the game less enjoyable, less skill based, and would require rebalancing basically everything.

[Mcgral18]

Adiuvo, on 03 October 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

Pinpoint damage *is* a core, fundamental facet of gameplay. Your weapons are accurate - that is where they are balanced! If they are not accurate the validity of high heat builds goes out the window, gameplay becomes less about skill, and RNG will become a factor in a game where very little already exists.

Predictability is a large part of what makes this game as good as it is. If you know weapons, you'll know how much damage they deal. You'll know their effective ranges. You know what mechs can mount what, and where their weapons are located. Because this game is so reliant on the parts system and the lack of a static HP pool, accuracy is more important here than other games. The relatively long weapon cooldowns play a part as well.

Implementing cone of fire would overall make the game less enjoyable, less skill based, and would require rebalancing basically everything.

It's almost like your saying this point and click adventure requires skill.


There is no skill in MWO's shooting system, no variables to account for. Everything will magically, instantly converge. You boat as many weapons that's feasible, they will all hit the same target.

Barring different travel speeds, of course, but hitscan doesn't have that issue.

A system that had a choice, sequentially fire the allotted amount of pinpoint firepower, or alpha with a risk of not hitting the same pixel with a half dozen weapons. There would be a risk, and a skill to place damage over a period of time on the same component. MWO certainly doesn't have that. Wait for them to turn, FIRE EVERYTHING! (which will all hit the same pixel)

Edited by Mcgral18, 03 October 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[Hoax415]

Adiuvo, on 03 October 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

Pinpoint damage *is* a core, fundamental facet of gameplay. Your weapons are accurate - that is where they are balanced! If they are not accurate the validity of high heat builds goes out the window, gameplay becomes less about skill, and RNG will become a factor in a game where very little already exists.

Predictability is a large part of what makes this game as good as it is. If you know weapons, you'll know how much damage they deal. You'll know their effective ranges. You know what mechs can mount what, and where their weapons are located. Because this game is so reliant on the parts system and the lack of a static HP pool, accuracy is more important here than other games. The relatively long weapon cooldowns play a part as well.

Implementing cone of fire would overall make the game less enjoyable, less skill based, and would require rebalancing basically everything.

Yawn.

Don't quote me if you are going to avoid addressing anything in the post of mine you quoted.

You didn't post anything but predictable personal opinion.

If we polled the player community:
TTK is too low
TTK is fine
TTK is too high

You know damn well what the response would be. So you ignore that part of the conversation.

"the game would be less fun" you say. Hardly a universal opinion and you know it.

You claim the weapons are balanced around pinpoint alpha except we've seen time and time and time again that the balancing act is always to try to reduce the effectiveness of a given pinpoint alpha setup. Because nothing else in the game matters except those few times they have completely broken missiles often through accidents (splash damage fiasco comes to mind).

Edited by Hoax415, 03 October 2014 - 02:56 PM.

[Clint Steel]

Many shooters have a "randomness" added to your aim when you are moving/looking around, like Rainbow Six.

I think this could help fight pinpoint. You could still get your perfect aim if you took just a little longer to aim, but the quick fire at the hip perfect aim would be limited.

[Clit Beastwood]

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

A PPC can have a recoil, we are talking about a Particule Projector Canon. Firing an immense wave of energy in one big shot.
Of course it can create some recoil.

"Of course"? Based on *what*? Someone posted a source link saying it creates recoil, but that doesn't really make sense if a PPC is supposed to be some sort of a particle accelerator. :sigh: even the canon source material is stupid.

[Noth]

So people already know that cof and randomness is pretty much completely out the window and instead of trying to find other way to fix the issue, you just keep saying to use what is already said to be out of the question...