348 replies to this topic

[KuroNyra]

Or on another name. The Instant-Convergence problem.


Ok, first of all. I apologize for my English. It is not my native language.

Beware: What I propose will have flaw, the principe of this thread is to try to find the best solution in case the said solution could be a good one.
I’m just a regular guy having an idea and sharing it.


One of the major problems with the pinpoint damage is that you can instantly focus all your weapon on the same portion of a mech, and most of the weapon will attack at that point on the same time.
That made a lot of problem in the past, especially with the Boating who give birth to the Ghost Heat.

There was problems like the 6 PPC Stalker, and all the boring boating who made the game unfun and frustrating.

The Ghost Heat solved IN PART that problem but also created new ones.


On the Battletech Franchise, pilot weren’t all that precise when fighting and not all the same weapon were going to hit the same place.


A solution I propose is to create a system like of Cone of Fire with a reajustement system.
For example, let’s take a Timber Wolf with 4 medium laser on the Arms and 2 pulse laser on both side torso.


Let’s say that the TBW is facing an Awesome and fire at him on the move. What could happen? Both arm are moving but are not both synced and have some shift between them. Let’s say I was targeting the CT of the AWS during the move, the time needed to the arm to make the move make them shifting and one arm pass throught my visor a bit before readjusting it, the other did the same and they after a few second completely readjust. But, they are not both exactly on the the visor and they shift at every move.

A bit different for the Torso-Mounted weapon, they haven’t that kind of problem, but are not synced too and will hit at two different locations.

Same example, I attack the AWS. My pulse laser both hit the center torso but not at the exact same spot like it’s currently the case.



Also, when you are firing with basilistic, you also shake a bit (not too much to avoid the LRM syndrome, but the bigger the weapon is, the bigger the effect can feel) and your weapon will be starting to spread more the fire. Not Shotgun style, but it won’t hit the exact same location every time.
No big change for the Missile, they actually work pretty well I think.



That system could avoid the pinpoint damage problem, affecting both IS and Clan Mech.
I’m looking forward to discuss that with you guy’s.

Edited by KuroNyra, 03 October 2014 - 03:36 PM.

[Belorion]

NO... Never

just say no to cone of fire.

[Judge Redeemer]

Cone of fire or even some form of recoil would help dealing with pinpoint damage it would still take part of your mech but they at least wont one shot you...with a module for recoil reduction you can have sort of balance and getting recoil when you fire more than two/one of same weapon type at once (balistic and ppc with point that recoil rate would grow from ac/2to ac/20 )

[Adiuvo]

I really don't consider pinpoint damage a problem.

[KuroNyra]

Belorion, on 03 October 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

NO... Never

just say no to cone of fire.

That could solve some problem I think, and in the Books, they didn't have that godlike precision we have at the moment.

Adiuvo, on 03 October 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

I really don't consider pinpoint damage a problem.

When you face a BoomJaegger, or a AC/10 boat. You do.
Same goes for Laser boats.


Has I said, it's a suggestion.


Just saying "HO HECK NO" won't help in ANYWAY.

Edited by KuroNyra, 03 October 2014 - 01:22 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Don't feel like we've been here in this topic before.

We are the pilot, not dice rolls, not cones of randomness us, it's our abilities that determine what and where we hit or miss.

[KuroNyra]

DV McKenna, on 03 October 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

Don't feel like we've been here in this topic before.

We are the pilot, not dice rolls, not cones of randomness us, it's our abilities that determine what and where we hit or miss.

The problem is the system is at the moment far to precise to be even "realistic". In the Lore, they didn't had just to put the cursor and directly fire, the Battlemech's aren't precision machine able to fire all there weapon at the exact same spot in 0.1 second flat after a huge turn.


That's my opinion anyway.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

The problem is the system is at the moment far to precise to be even "realistic". In the Lore, they didn't had just to put the cursor and directly fire, the Battlemech's aren't precision machine able to fire all there weapon at the exact same spot in 0.1 second flat after a huge turn.


That's my opinion anyway.

This isn't the lore, this isn't the table top, we don't have to script in misses for suspense and action.

We and our abilities to pilot, aim, read situations, obtain advantages do that instead.

[Belorion]

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

That could solve some problem I think, and in the Books, they didn't have that godlike precision we have at the moment.

1. It's not really a problem. Only time I have ever been one shot is when I stopped in a locust (something you should never do).
2. Cone of fire or other ways of introducing randomness into play won't be accepted by a huge number of the player base including me. I would quit first.
3. Shaking or growing reticles are in the same boat... I am ok with the shake they added while jumping... but anything more, or just while moving is out.
4. If anything they can make weapons more dps than instant damage. Like they have done with the clan mechs.

[RetroActive]

What pinpoint damage problem?!

[KuroNyra]

Belorion, on 03 October 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

1. It's not really a problem. Only time I have ever been one shot is when I stopped in a locust (something you should never do).
2. Cone of fire or other ways of introducing randomness into play won't be accepted by a huge number of the player base including me. I would quit first.
3. Shaking or growing reticles are in the same boat... I am ok with the shake they added while jumping... but anything more, or just while moving is out.
4. If anything they can make weapons more dps than instant damage. Like they have done with the clan mechs.

1. You should burn for that mistake. The god of Locust is ashamed of your mistake!
2. Can agree.
4. And how can you make an AC/20 more "dps" than instant damage?

[Adiuvo]

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

When you face a BoomJaegger, or a AC/10 boat. You do.
Same goes for Laser boats.

I deal with that every day, and I play lights, which gain the least from pinpoint damage and lose the most.

I still don't think it's a problem.

Torso twisting is the basic counterplay, both preemptively and on reaction. It works just fine.

[KuroNyra]

Adiuvo, on 03 October 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

I deal with that every day, and I play lights, which gain the least from pinpoint damage and lose the most.

I still don't think it's a problem.

Torso twisting is the basic counterplay, both preemptively and on reaction. It works just fine.

Touché


But... When you are torso twisting and having you arm blowed up by an instant-alpha because every of his weapon shooted the same location.
Will torso twisting save you?

It's not for nothing some build are feared for there Alpha. And for There Alpha because they all hit the same place at the same time.

Edited by KuroNyra, 03 October 2014 - 01:45 PM.

[Belorion]

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

1. You should burn for that mistake. The god of Locust is ashamed of your mistake!
2. Can agree.
4. And how can you make an AC/20 more "dps" than instant damage?

4. 4 or more shells that do 5 or less points of damage spread over the course of what the normal shot cool down is. They would then adjust the other weapons to be split up more or less the same way. This is actually closer to what it would have been in TT. Take this excerpt from Sarna for example. http://www.sarna.net...i/Autocannon/20

Quote

An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output.

Edited by Belorion, 03 October 2014 - 01:45 PM.

[KuroNyra]

Belorion, on 03 October 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

4. 4 or more shells that do 5 or less points of damage spread over the course of what the normal shot cool down is. They would then adjust the other weapons to be split up more or less the same way. This is actually closer to what it would have been in TT. Take this excerpt from Sarna for example. http://www.sarna.net...i/Autocannon/20

You've just described the Clan AC you know?
They fire multiple shell one after the other. 4 for the AC/20, all dealing 5 damage.
Yet, the IS Sphere one don't do that. What what difference would it make if they don't have a distinct feature?

[Adiuvo]

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

Touché


But... When you are torso twisting and having you arm blowed up by an instant-alpha because every of his weapon shooted the same location.
Will torso twisting save you?

It's not for nothing some build are feared for there Alpha. And for There Alpha because they all hit the same place at the same time.

That doesn't happen with lasers. The only thing that would happen with is an AC40 Jagermech, and you shouldn't be face hugging those to begin with.

[Eddrick]

No Cone of Fire, PLEASE

[KuroNyra]

Adiuvo, on 03 October 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

That doesn't happen with lasers. The only thing that would happen with is an AC40 Jagermech, and you shouldn't be face hugging those to begin with.

If you want to destroy them, you don't really have a choice.
And yes, it does happen with the lasers too. a guy using 4 medium laser will always hit the exact same location for the laser, and most of the time. It's where he intend to. Heck, my Dire Wolf is boating multiple style of laser, large, pulse and medium and they are absolutly devastating against my opponent. Even if they are torso twisting.

Eddrick, on 03 October 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

No Cone of Fire, PLEASE

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Just saying "HO HECK NO" won't help in ANYWAY.

Edited by KuroNyra, 03 October 2014 - 01:54 PM.

[Judge Redeemer]

DV McKenna, on 03 October 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

This isn't the lore, this isn't the table top, we don't have to script in misses for suspense and action.

We and our abilities to pilot, aim, read situations, obtain advantages do that instead.

And you want to tell me that even seasoned warriors dont need to have recoil on guns they use?
You are firing a cannon and it having no recoil is exactly dependable from your abilities? to move it aligin it and fire...wow...some intense brain work...

[Mcgral18]

Adiuvo, on 03 October 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

I really don't consider pinpoint damage a problem.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

It's the root of every balancing nightmare in MWO, bar the splash damage of 15+ damage per SRM.


It's lead to gauss charge, ghost heat, small and med lasers getting their heat boosted. HoverJets™ are a direct result of it, although it had its own share of issues.

Edited by Mcgral18, 03 October 2014 - 01:56 PM.