103 replies to this topic

[Trede]

zagibu, on 03 October 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:

When does a light mech ever face an Atlas/Dire Whale 1vs1 on these tiny maps?

At the end of a match. Early in the match when the majority of the push has outpaced the snail. It happens. Many times, I've seen games end with 1 light vs 1 or 2 hvy/assault.

[Xarian]

As I've explained many, many times:
The matchmaker changes as people join matches.

This means that whatever category started out lowest - no matter how much lower - will very rapidly drop to be very, very low. You could have the queue looking like 23%/25%/25%/27% - nearly perfectly distributed - and that will drop off to 1%/20%/20%/49% as soon as a group joins a match.

• The queue only shows who is waiting for a match - not who is currently playing.

[Adiuvo]

Trede, on 03 October 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Of course one mistake can spell death in a light. It REQUIRES more SKILL to pilot them. Period. You're speed/cover/ECM tanking, not armor tanking. Isn't that kind of the whole point? A well piloted light will kill an Atlas/Dire Whale 1v1 9 times out of 10. A poorly piloted light is a greasy smear on the battlefield.

You can kill a Daishi, though the Daishi being a position where that's possible is a screw up on his part.

An Atlas, unless it's running a something like a STD 300, will win out however. They can keep with a 350 which typically is what's ran.

Trede, on 03 October 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Show me the TW with ECM running 150+. They can't keep pace. In a lot of the recent tournament games I've watched, lights survive through the fight because they are using hit and run tactics...and they aren't as "big of a threat" (or, to be fair, target) as some of the other 'Mechs. Again, one mistake can mean death, but if they play their cards right lights can survive longer, meaning they have more time to deal damage.

Edit: Granted, TW's were not allowed in the aforementioned recent tournaments, as they are not currently available for c-bills...but they were outdamaging Summoners and Dire Wolves

RHOD Open Division Finals, Game 4:
FS9-E 397dmg
JR7-F(C) 331dm
SMN-PRIME 325dmg
(all three of these were alive at the end)

Straight line speed isn't what I'm talking about when they keep pace. That doesn't matter during a brawl. What matters in turn rate, which every mech but a Daishi can do.

ECM doesn't particularly matter even in solo play, but especially not at tournament level play.

RHoD open isn't 'high-level' tournament play. That was the point of it's creation. It's a place for new and/or up-and-coming units to dip their feet into the pool. What I'm saying still stands - a light outdamaging their bigger counterparts indicates that those bigger counterparts screwed up. That the inverse happens isn't proof of how good lights are.

Xarian, on 03 October 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

As I've explained many, many times:
The matchmaker changes as people join matches.

This means that whatever category started out lowest - no matter how much lower - will very rapidly drop to be very, very low. You could have the queue looking like 23%/25%/25%/27% - nearly perfectly distributed - and that will drop off to 1%/20%/20%/49% as soon as a group joins a match.

• The queue only shows who is waiting for a match - not who is currently playing.

That lights are just about always the lowest number indicates that less people are playing them, because there are less lights populating the queue to begin with.

[zagibu]

Trede, on 03 October 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

At the end of a match. Early in the match when the majority of the push has outpaced the snail. It happens. Many times, I've seen games end with 1 light vs 1 or 2 hvy/assault.

Yes, it happens. A lot of things happen. However, the frequency of those happenings is important when talking about balance. Those one on one encounters don't happen with any regularity, which is why your point is irrelevant to the question whether light mechs are fine or not.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Green Mamba, on 03 October 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

edit* BTW one advantage to low number ques'...When I solo drop in a light a lot of times I enter game in a few seconds ,something a heavy or Assault pilot can only dream of

Ya but its not fun when you,
A: Are in a high Elo bracket and the MM expects you to make up for half your team in skill and loose 9 out of 10 matches.
B: You have a low Elo and are placed against a team of high Elo and you loose.
C: You have an average Elo but your team are durps and dont stay together. They chase squirrels, dont kow how to aim or shoot. Or plow thru friendly's because they get tunnel vision and their heart starts racing and the loose all concept of "play smarter not harder" and ignore their hud, ignore friendly, ignore the mini map, ignore their surroundings, ignore red VS blue and try for a kill no matter what!
D: You cant shoot thru an invisible wall your hugging but the enemy can.
E: radar durp only works half the time
F: A person with 300 ping and 15 FPS gets an advantage over a 50 ping and 30 FPS.

Edited by Funkadelic Mayhem, 03 October 2014 - 02:34 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

oneda, on 03 October 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Lights suffer most from mwo's arcade style gameplay. They are meant to cover great distances and are thus most effective on the biggest maps in mwo. They would shine in a more simulation oriented game. With much longer rounds, giant maps and multiple objectives.

There, as opposed to here, you would be at a major disadvantage without them. They are the ones providing intel which is completly obsolete in mwo no matter what anybody says. You can see the mechs spawning in the distance on most maps here.

But ppl probably dont want rounds that last much longer than 15 mins and dont want to cover greater distances. I can understand the developers line of thought.

Personally I would have preferred a heavy simulation instead, with a lobby where ppl vote on player suggested routes the team will then choose. With specific roles that need to be filled and the forums that disculls the best routes and strategies.

Longer games, much much bigger maps, more scouting, more objectives, with landing pads that can be secured for reinforcments (e.g. respawn) or other resources that provide each of the teams mechs with artillery or airstrikes, and other points that provide repair. So each team has to consider where to go and what suits their playstyle best.

There are so many more ideas which would be possible.

Mwos combat is great fun. They did a good job with it. But I would have loved a way more complex gameplay.

That is, in my opinion, why lights just arent as effective in mwo.

Light mechs use to be fantastic and 100% needed in the old alpine conquest layout the team with more competent light mechs and to a lesser extant 100kph + mediums usually won the match. But these days we have the glorious fatty master race alpine base layout.


Also CW matches with respawns are said to be 30min so a good light should be able to last a long time while still keeping those valuable respawns. And there will be some form of objectives lights can go for in CW, we have atleast the generator idea so far.

[Astrocanis]

oneda, on 03 October 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Lights suffer most from mwo's arcade style gameplay. They are meant to cover great distances and are thus most effective on the biggest maps in mwo. They would shine in a more simulation oriented game. With much longer rounds, giant maps and multiple objectives.

There, as opposed to here, you would be at a major disadvantage without them. They are the ones providing intel which is completly obsolete in mwo no matter what anybody says. You can see the mechs spawning in the distance on most maps here.

But ppl probably dont want rounds that last much longer than 15 mins and dont want to cover greater distances. I can understand the developers line of thought.

Personally I would have preferred a heavy simulation instead, with a lobby where ppl vote on player suggested routes the team will then choose. With specific roles that need to be filled and the forums that disculls the best routes and strategies.

Longer games, much much bigger maps, more scouting, more objectives, with landing pads that can be secured for reinforcments (e.g. respawn) or other resources that provide each of the teams mechs with artillery or airstrikes, and other points that provide repair. So each team has to consider where to go and what suits their playstyle best.

There are so many more ideas which would be possible.

Mwos combat is great fun. They did a good job with it. But I would have loved a way more complex gameplay.

That is, in my opinion, why lights just arent as effective in mwo.

Something I believe they could add that would greatly affect gameplay in a more positive way would be to add the fog-of-war/unexplored-territory feature to maps.

It would assist with LRMfests as well as make scouting more of a real need.

For example, a small map like River City: no targeting of mechs is possible and only those areas that have been explored can be "seen" on the radar map. Thus, units could hide and would be more sensitive to lights than "jump in and start fighting" because without scouting, they wouldn't know what they were running into.

On large maps, it's pretty obvious how lights would help.

In many games, map exploration is imperative - without it/roaming skirmishers, it's easy to lose a game simply because you don't have tactical feeds into your units. Think everything from Command and Conquer/Age of Empires through Starcraft/Warcraft.

I think it would add a lot to role warfare that is simply missing because right now you see everything (provided your zoom finger works) that the enemy team is doing, even if they have ECM.

[Haji1096]

The problem I have is on maps like Forest Colony and to a lesser extent Frozen City. On these small maps there is no room to maneuver and take advantage of my speed. Its suicide (in a Jenner) to attempt to place a UAV on Forest Colony.

I suppose I should just be more patient and just run in circles behind my team or run an SDR-5D.

[stjobe]

Adiuvo, on 03 October 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

They're simply outclassed, primarily due to a lack of agility. All of the top picks nowadays can keep pace with them. TWs. Victors. Lights need a boost to accel/decel/turn rate across the board.

I'd say it's the other way around; lights are outclassed not because of a lack of agility, but because the heavier 'mechs have too much agility. We don't need to boost light agility, we need to reduce the heavier 'mechs' agility.

When a STD300 Atlas can track a light going 133.8 kph perpendicular to the Atlas at 50 meters just by leg turning (no torso twist needed), something is wrong.

[Adiuvo]

stjobe, on 03 October 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

I'd say it's the other way around; lights are outclassed not because of a lack of agility, but because the heavier 'mechs have too much agility. We don't need to boost light agility, we need to reduce the heavier 'mechs' agility.

When a STD300 Atlas can track a light going 133.8 kph perpendicular to the Atlas at 50 meters just by leg turning (no torso twist needed), something is wrong.

Agreed! I think it's more likely that PGI will buff lights rather than nerf assaults/heavies, though.

[C4-Wolfy36]

I have made a choice to run nothing but light mechs mostly the spider. No matter what the assault bunnies say, it takes more skill to pilot a light mech in a world of "more guns are better". Light pilots have to think faster, drive faster, and shoot better just to survive.

I can only imagine the "fixes" they have envisioned will just make me more dangerous. Thanks PGI


Note to Zagibu: one v ones happen, but mostly when you are out in the open the enemy team says to itself..."LOOK SQUIRREL" and all guns zero in on the light.

Final note: When I need a break from running my butt off and trying to stay alive, I occasionally take my lermtaro out just for the fun of being a no talent button pushing missile bunny.

[Angel of Annihilation]

The size of the light que is determined by the players, not by the lack of light mechs being viable and competitive. You can't purposely design lights to be overpowered just to encourage people to pick a playstyle that most don't enjoy and that is what would have to happen to get more people playing these.

Honestly light mechs are kind of like Healers in other MMOs. Everyone wants to play DPS but no one wants to heal. This doesn't mean healers suck, it just means most people prefer DPS, simple as that. Same with MWO, people perfer to DPS and to DPS you need to be in a Heavy or Assault. Mediums are like Hybrid characters useful and versatile but the last choice for inclusion to the party and the Lights are the pure support and healer classes, necessary to really do well but always in short supply.

[Foxfire]

Viktor Drake, on 03 October 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

The size of the light que is determined by the players, not by the lack of light mechs being viable and competitive. You can't purposely design lights to be overpowered just to encourage people to pick a playstyle that most don't enjoy and that is what would have to happen to get more people playing these.

Honestly light mechs are kind of like Healers in other MMOs. Everyone wants to play DPS but no one wants to heal. This doesn't mean healers suck, it just means most people prefer DPS, simple as that. Same with MWO, people perfer to DPS and to DPS you need to be in a Heavy or Assault. Mediums are like Hybrid characters useful and versatile but the last choice for inclusion to the party and the Lights are the pure support and healer classes, necessary to really do well but always in short supply.

If lights weren't so easily decimated by the current meta, you would see more lights.

As is, lights are very unforgiving of mistakes and unrewarding for the most part. Most of the jobs that are supposed to be handled by lights are all but meaningless in the game, as is.

[Wolfways]

Bad pilots stand in front of the enemy and die. Bad light pilots stand in front of the enemy and die faster. Therefore lights must suck and need buffs.
Good pilots will mess you up. Good light pilots will mess you up so much your mother wouldn't recognize you.

Also, lights will always be less popular because they are light mechs in a game about giant mechs blowing the shite out of each other, not because they are inferior...which they aren't.

[Foxfire]

Wolfways, on 03 October 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Bad pilots stand in front of the enemy and die. Bad light pilots stand in front of the enemy and die faster. Therefore lights must suck and need buffs.
Good pilots will mess you up. Good light pilots will mess you up so much your mother wouldn't recognize you.

Also, lights will always be less popular because they are light mechs in a game about giant mechs blowing the shite out of each other, not because they are inferior...which they aren't.

It is an issue of learning curve. Light mechs, as is, are the most unforgiving mechs in the game. Much more so than any other mech. As long as that remains the case, especially with the paltry rewards for 'typical' light jobs and behaviors, you will continue to see light mechs remain the bottom of the pile population wise.

I personally typically average 2-4 kills a game and 400-600 damage when I pilot a light mech unless I am experimenting with loadouts or new light mechs. I don't think that I am an elite light pilot but I do think that I am better than a random scrub.

[InspectorG]

Plus lights suffer from lack of reward.

The money makers for me are assists, occasional kill, well placed uav.
its just kinda hard to get the component destruction the other classes can get.

A nice C-bill boost to all lights may draw some people.

An agility and reverse boost would be welcome as well as an agility nerf to heavies and assaults.

[Bishop Steiner]

nehebkau, on 03 October 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

"They" need to consider how their changes affects all mech weight classes; jumpjets, laser heat and range and falling damage impacted light mechs FAR more than the heavier chassis and made them substantially harder to play.

Nothing more frustrating then walking (ok at 150 kph) down a gentle slope and getting constant leg damage

um, lights were either unaffected, or in a couple case, improved on jumping. Fall damage did impact them overly much apparently, though it's funny, I run lights a fair bit, learned to compensate and don't even notice it now.

[Darian DelFord]

The greatest buff the lights can get, as someone said above is to nerf the turning speed and radius of the heavier mechs. Its stupid how quick assault mechs can turn around,

[aniviron]

Trede, on 03 October 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Of course one mistake can spell death in a light. It REQUIRES more SKILL to pilot them. Period. You're speed/cover/ECM tanking, not armor tanking. Isn't that kind of the whole point? A well piloted light will kill an Atlas/Dire Whale 1v1 9 times out of 10. A poorly piloted light is a greasy smear on the battlefield.

Balance that is predicated on one player being perfect and never making a mistake while the other pilot is allowed to make mistakes is poor balance. Let's say we have that same light pilot who never makes mistakes, but now he's piloting a dire whale. He never makes mistakes, so he's never out of position, never forgetting to check his sight lines, never overheating or leaving himself exposed. The light he's going up against loses that fight every single time.

Of course a pilot who never makes a mistake will win against pilots who make mistakes. But if you have two fallible pilots or two perfect pilots, the assault wins every time.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 03 October 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

Balance that is predicated on one player being perfect and never making a mistake while the other pilot is allowed to make mistakes is poor balance. Let's say we have that same light pilot who never makes mistakes, but now he's piloting a dire whale. He never makes mistakes, so he's never out of position, never forgetting to check his sight lines, never overheating or leaving himself exposed. The light he's going up against loses that fight every single time.

Of course a pilot who never makes a mistake will win against pilots who make mistakes. But if you have two fallible pilots or two perfect pilots, the assault wins every time.

You know what really sucks... is if a Light pilot has to carry the team. It's already happened to me, at least twice today in the tourney.

It's disappointing too, including the sub-100 damage games.