161 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

It's another LRMs touched me inappropriately thread.

[Tristan Winter]

Competitions and challenges always bring out the worst of MWO, for better and for worse. When the reward is big enough, people will do anything to win. And you see the weakness in game balance better than you normally do.

The LRM + ECM + NARC triumvirate was never defeated. It's still a very significant and totally random factor in PUG games. If you lucky, you have those on your team. If you're unlucky, you don't.

The Assault mech meta is still going strong. Whole lances of Dire Wolves and players shrugging their shoulders saying "Everyone else is doing it, why not me?"

I hope PGI is using this weekend as a better vantage point from which to analyse their game.

[Fuggles]

El Bandito, on 04 October 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

Or make TAG invisible to the enemy team.

the point is the range, the visibility is the icing on the cake so to speak. the spotter is a legit job in role warfare. if im playing a spotter 9 times out of 10 im not going to bother taking tag. im in a locust/spider/commando and im taking sensor range/target decay/bap and sitting at 1k meters.

if im in tag range, simply looking in my general direction lights me up to the whole enemy team , now im the one getting lurmed to death, a gauss rounds may or may not one shot my leg and ive got about 15 seconds until a pack of lights is on me.

or i could simly take one of my firestarters, forget teamplay and chop up mechs with my lasers so whatever.

what we are both getting at here if you couldnt tell from where im ciming from is that information sharing is just a tad too strong without investing anything for it.

Edited by Fuggles, 04 October 2014 - 06:20 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 04 October 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

Competitions and challenges always bring out the worst of MWO, for better and for worse. When the reward is big enough, people will do anything to win. And you see the weakness in game balance better than you normally do.

The LRM + ECM + NARC triumvirate was never defeated. It's still a very significant and totally random factor in PUG games. If you lucky, you have those on your team. If you're unlucky, you don't.

The Assault mech meta is still going strong. Whole lances of Dire Wolves and players shrugging their shoulders saying "Everyone else is doing it, why not me?"

I hope PGI is using this weekend as a better vantage point from which to analyse their game.

I don't know Nick, as a former Infantryman and amateur martial arts competitor, You don't bring your B game to the fight. If you need to do more than X damage to score high then You bring out the big cannons and fire support to score it. That isn't really the worst of this crowd, now if they were cheating then yes that would be the worst. But bring good effective toys to use is SOP.

[SgtMagor]

lrm's don't leave home without them...

[Joseph Mallan]

Fuggles, on 04 October 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

the point is the range, the visibility is the icing on the cake so to speak. the spotter is a legit job in role warfare. if im playing a spotter 9 times out of 10 im not going to bother taking tag. im in a locust/spider/commando and im taking sensor range/target decay/bap and sitting at 1k meters.

if im in tag range, simply looking in my general direction lights me up to the whole enemy team , now im the one getting lurmed to death, a gauss rounds may or may not one shot my leg and ive got about 15 seconds until a pack of lights is on me.

or i could simly take one of my firestarters, forget teamplay and chop up mechs with my lasers so whatever.

what we are both getting at here if you couldnt tell from where im ciming from is that information sharing is just a tad too strong without investing anything for it.

Is not a really expensive piece of equipment and actually has a more powerful version in your Firestarter. And all you have to be doing is look at the target! And you will have literal TONS of additional weapons to bring against your target.

SgtMagor, on 04 October 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

lrm's don't leave home without them...

You're a fool if you do Sleeve!

[RockmachinE]

Yea, LRMs are still annoying. Its not so much that there's no counters to it, it's not even that people die often from them, it's the incessant "incoming missile" no matter what you do.

Peek - inc msl, flank - inc msl, brawl - inc msl, snipe - inc msl, any form of contact - inc msl, fart -inc msl. No matter what you do you get locked all the ******* time. Hell, turn the god damned voice and flashing warning off, just give me a pleasant beep and you've solved 50% of the problem.

Its getting old. I'm tired of having to adapt/counter/dodge missiles about 50% of my play time. The game was WAY MORE FUN and yes WAY MORE TACTICAL when you could actually go about doing stuff without this never ending bullshit.

They're not OP, they're not hard to counter they're not even that useful, they are just:

ANNOYING AS SH*T

Edited by Louis Brofist, 04 October 2014 - 06:31 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Louis Brofist, on 04 October 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:

Yea, LRMs are still annoying. Its not so much that there's no counters to it, it's not even that people die often from them, it's the incessant "incoming missile" no matter what you do.

Peek - inc msl, flank - inc msl, brawl - inc msl, snipe - inc msl, any form of contact - inc msl, fart -inc msl. No matter what you do you get locked all the ******* time. Hell, turn the god damned voice and flashing warning off, just give me a pleasant beep and you've solved 50% of the problem.

Its getting old. I'm tired of having to adapt/counter/dodge missiles about 50% of my play time. The game was WAY MORE FUN and yes WAY MORE TACTICAL when you could actually go about doing stuff without this never ending bullshit.

They're not OP, they're not hard to counter they're not even that useful, they are just:

ANNOYING AS SH*T

WORKING AS INTENDED THEN!

[Tristan Winter]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 October 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

I don't know Nick, as a former Infantryman and amateur martial arts competitor, You don't bring your B game to the fight. If you need to do more than X damage to score high then You bring out the big cannons and fire support to score it. That isn't really the worst of this crowd, now if they were cheating then yes that would be the worst. But bring good effective toys to use is SOP.

As a martial arts competitor, I'm not doing anything I can to win. If I'm grappling, I'm going for submissions, I'm not hunting for points. If I'm striking, I'm pushing the pace, not evading my opponent just to maintain a lead in the eyes of the judges. Even if I'm ahead on the scorecards, I'll still attack. If I lose, I lose. But I'm going to compete in the spirit of martial arts, I'm not doing anything I can to win within the rules.

Now, players are gonna play, competitors are gonna compete. Personally, I try to play the game as I would want others to play it. The major fault is not with the other players, because conscience is not a reliable pillar in online games. The major fault is with the developers who aren't able to create a better gameplay balance, to avoid boring gameplay.

And I know it's not intentional. They're doing their best, and the players are doing their best to circumvent the attempts of the developers. That's how it goes. Players are gonna play.

As for actual warfare, that's a different thing alltogether. No sane individual goes to war to have fun. I am playing MWO to have fun, however. And I do martial arts for fun. That's why it's a better analogy, IMO.

[Wolfways]

Reitrix, on 04 October 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

Simplest solution is change it so that you *NEED* to have NARC or TAG on a target to fire at it indirectly.

That way, if you get LRM'd to death, you know it's because YOU screwed up, and not because some guy glanced in your direction and directed the entire enemy teams missiles into you.

If you get LRM'd to death it is already your fault because you weren't using cover. If you can be attacked from multiple directions, thereby negating your cover, then it's your teams fault for getting outmaneuvered.

Having said that, i don't care if indirect-fire only worked with TAG, NARC, and UAV as i don't like using indirect-fire myself. But in direct-fire LRM's need some serious buffs.

[RockmachinE]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 October 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

WORKING AS INTENDED THEN!

Bas*ards !

I can't believe bas*ard is censored...

Edited by Louis Brofist, 04 October 2014 - 06:46 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 04 October 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

As a martial arts competitor, I'm not doing anything I can to win. If I'm grappling, I'm going for submissions, I'm not hunting for points. If I'm striking, I'm pushing the pace, not evading my opponent just to maintain a lead in the eyes of the judges. Even if I'm ahead on the scorecards, I'll still attack. If I lose, I lose. But I'm going to compete in the spirit of martial arts, I'm not doing anything I can to win within the rules.

Now, players are gonna play, competitors are gonna compete. Personally, I try to play the game as I would want others to play it. The major fault is not with the other players, because conscience is not a reliable pillar in online games. The major fault is with the developers who aren't able to create a better gameplay balance, to avoid boring gameplay.

And I know it's not intentional. They're doing their best, and the players are doing their best to circumvent the attempts of the developers. That's how it goes. Players are gonna play.

As for actual warfare, that's a different thing alltogether. No sane individual goes to war to have fun. I am playing MWO to have fun, however. And I do martial arts for fun. That's why it's a better analogy, IMO.

I'm Playing MWO to kill the other guys in the game. Killing them without dying is fun for me. So If i do that from 400m behind the front line raining missiles or Two gunning AC20s... Its all fun to me. Whatever I have to do to get the mission in the win column.

As for Martial Arts, I use the tried and true attacks and defenses that score the most points and don''t worry about the pretty or really cool looking attacks. I play like I fight, To Win. Here losing doesn't hurt so I can just shrug it off. Competitive MA I try to score as many hits as possible as fast as I can. Here I try to do as much damage as I can while taking the least I can. Its all relative.

I love my fire Support players and I enjoy providing it when I can do it effectively. So if my side wins by Spamming Missiles from 600 meters away and only losing 1-2 Players. Thats a good game for us not for them.

[InspectorG]

Easiest fix is nerf ammo loads.

Im not against LRM per se, but rather that they fall into newb hands over percieved ease of use and get spammed when my elo drops to a certain point.

Skillful LRM use is always welcome. And i dont QQ why i die in the rain.
Its all part of warfare.
Granted, MWO/BT are fantasy warfare games with the emphasis on big robots brawling.

But look at contemporary warfare: missiles and bombing first, usually, then boots on the ground.
If you added more realism to BT/MW mechs would be smaller, carry tactical nukes, and have info suites that make google much shame. LRMs would be WAY more devastating, likely flirting with war crime atrocity.

Orbital bombardment, anyone???

Keep the LRMs, fix the lrm-ecm-stealth dynamic.

And also EXPECT for people to use the best leverage(or lowest hanging fruit) during events. The time crunch ensures players will want to be as 'comp' as possible given their resources/skill.

[Farix]

EvilCow, on 04 October 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

The problem is the indirect fire by JUST observation.

Even assuming you are in the mood of do some brawling, as soon you get in range of a viable opponent you get lurmd to death by any idiot in 1kmh radius smart enough to find the lurms weapons group.

Everybody know you can get cover, stay behind buildings and blah blah but where is the fun of that?

CLRMs made it worse, there is always tonnage to fill some slots so it is a common backup.

Reitrix, on 04 October 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

Simplest solution is change it so that you *NEED* to have NARC or TAG on a target to fire at it indirectly.

That way, if you get LRM'd to death, you know it's because YOU screwed up, and not because some guy glanced in your direction and directed the entire enemy teams missiles into you.

http://mwomercs.com/...ds-an-overhaul/

Fuggles, on 04 October 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

theres a cure! take out a Kit fox with 3x ams, 5k rounds of ams ammo, ams range/ams overload modues + rader dep and ECM.

if enough people do this, then eventually the forums will be filled with the tears of missleboats saying they cant do anything, cant get any locks, when they do all their missles get shot down.

And the person playing that Kit Fox won't be having much fun. We had a lancemate that switched over to his because of all of the LRMs, but he really wanted to play and grind out his mediums and heavies.

[Joseph Mallan]

Louis Brofist, on 04 October 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

Bas*ards !

I can't believe bas*ard is censored...

Me either. I am one by birth! and to be honest, way to many kids are born out of wedlock these days for it to be an insult of any real power IYAM!

[Astrocanis]

William Conrad, on 04 October 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

Recently, with the Mad Dog and a whole heap of clan mechs, with Clan LRMs having half the tonnage of the IS LRM...

Every game I played.. LRMed and LRMed.. to Death.

This is not a fun game to play anymore.

We need better protections against these LRM rains. Like more AMS on mechs or chaff pods.

I like LRMs. I play them and I play against them. I am rarely killed by them and rarely actually get kills with them - even with Artemis.

I think this is a case of battlefield awareness. If you are a "stand up and shoot it out" kind of player, you are going to be annihilated by LRMs and, frankly, anything with alpha strikes. The best defense against a DireWhale is LRMs at this point. Makes him keep his head down but rarely does anything permanent.

My best advice is to practice more. You don't have to "spend the whole game hiding behind a building" as one person in this thread so eloquently put it. LRMs are really more of a suppression weapon than a "killer". If you are being consistently killed by them, you might want to examine your tactics and overall playstyle and loadouts.

Funny thing about games: it seems to be the only place where people actively try to change "reality". And, as in the real world, it rarely works out the way they'd like.

[Tristan Winter]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 October 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

I'm Playing MWO to kill the other guys in the game

I know you do, there was no need to elaborate. I know the way you think, it's the same way a lot of people playing this game think. It's why PGI needs to do a better job to prevent boring gameplay, because so many people do whatever they can to win.

Edited by Nicolai Kabrinsky, 04 October 2014 - 06:52 AM.

[InspectorG]

Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 04 October 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

As a martial arts competitor, I'm not doing anything I can to win. If I'm grappling, I'm going for submissions, I'm not hunting for points. If I'm striking, I'm pushing the pace, not evading my opponent just to maintain a lead in the eyes of the judges. Even if I'm ahead on the scorecards, I'll still attack. If I lose, I lose. But I'm going to compete in the spirit of martial arts, I'm not doing anything I can to win within the rules.

Now, players are gonna play, competitors are gonna compete. Personally, I try to play the game as I would want others to play it. The major fault is not with the other players, because conscience is not a reliable pillar in online games. The major fault is with the developers who aren't able to create a better gameplay balance, to avoid boring gameplay.

And I know it's not intentional. They're doing their best, and the players are doing their best to circumvent the attempts of the developers. That's how it goes. Players are gonna play.

As for actual warfare, that's a different thing alltogether. No sane individual goes to war to have fun. I am playing MWO to have fun, however. And I do martial arts for fun. That's why it's a better analogy, IMO.

Some play to win.

Some play for style.

In a game or sport, both are valid.

I read WoTC(if i recall?) broke down their demographics into roughly 3 types of players and named them Timmy, Jonny, and Spike(something like that)
One was competitive at all cost.
One was interested mainly in whatever was trending.
One was a hybrid comp/individual style player.

[InspectorG]

Farix, on 04 October 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

.

That Kitfox build is way overkill for anti-lrm.

Really you only need ECM, maybe radar derp for yourself.

Put your own lrm in the other arm.

This weekend is gonna be a rock-throwin contest.

[Wolfways]

Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 04 October 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

I know you do, there was no need to elaborate. I know the way you think, it's the same way a lot of people playing this game think. It's why PGI needs to do a better job to prevent boring gameplay, because so many people do whatever they can to win.

That makes no sense. The whole point of a combat game is to try to win. Not everyone has or likes the same playstyle and you can't just remove/nerf one because the other players don't like it.