33 replies to this topic

[Lockon StratosII]

In honor of beating a long dead horse:


Ok, jokes aside, with mentioning of convergence in recent town hall meeting and all ideas being posted around about it I decided to post this idea that I had on my mind for a while now. I don't claim it's flawless or that it's the one to end them all but maybe something comes out of it:

*DISCLAIMER: I will be using Homeless Bills TCL as a convergence condition because because most of the forum knows about it and how it works/triggers penalties. If you have something better to act as a condition (ie number of weapons firing at the same time, tonnage of those weapons, combined damage.....) feel free to post it as a suggestion

So the idea is this: if convergence condition is reached, set convergence distance to 2000m for next 2 seconds.

That's it, the whole idea. Now to some explaining:

blue circle: aim point origin - your cockpit
green circle: aim point location - what you are aiming at
red circle: hit location or weapon point of origin depending of the mech you are looking at
red line: weapon trajectory



So left side of the picture is what we have now:instant convergence at all times and it's process probably looks something like this:
...
...
aim
button_down
fire_weapons
...
...
with convergence always being active in background doing adjustments for changes in aim parameters so our weapons will always hit where we aim at any given moment. What I am proposing is this:
...
...
aim
button_down
if (TCL>100) then aim.distance=2000 //for next 2 seconds
fire_weapons
...
...
with convergence still working in background. This means that everything is exactly the same (with the exception of one additional operation) as what we have now if the condition is not met, which means all your weapons will hit where you aim and that there is no additional server load or performance loss.
Now right side is what differs and that is the case when condition is met: we forcibly alter one parameter, distance, to a great value which in turn with help of math and geometry effectively makes our weapons fire parallel to each other thus eliminating perfect convergence (not permanently just for the next 2 seconds - this time is so that lasers with long burn time don't snap back to perfect convergence in the middle of shot thus working around this penalty). After the 2 second time is up all re rolls back to normal functions so you can repeat the whole process again.
Now I know that most people are afraid or CoF and randomness, but there is no randomness here. If you look at upper and lower right parts you will see that hit locations during penalty correspond to the silhouette of their location on the mech firing the weapons, so if you are going to get penalized with your next shot you can predict what will you hit if you know what your mech looks like and where are your weapons mounted.

Pros:
-no randomness
-relatively simple to code
-not much additional server load
-easy to understand

Cons:
-requires implementing some idea for what will determine convergence condition (I used TCL as an example)
-mechs with tightly packed weapons are less affected from it (but then again why is the first thing people do when they see a hunch is to try to dequasimodo him)
-mechs with multiple weapons originating from one point (like lasers on cicada or on stalker) would require graphical upgrades to fix that issue

Sorry if I went into too much detail but I wanted to make sure that there are no misunderstandings and that people that are not too computer savvy could understand what am I talking about

[kapusta11]

That's a bad decision buisness wise, and that's the reason why it will never happen.

[ApolloKaras]

http://www.twitch.tv/ngngtv/c/5226034

Fast Forward to 1 Hour 45 minutes.

[Zyllos]

Saxie, on 04 October 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

http://www.twitch.tv/ngngtv/c/5226034

Fast Forward to 1 Hour 45 minutes.

The only truth I heard from Russ about CoF/Convergence is the amount of players who would hate it. But there lies the problem. I 100%, honestly, do not think you can get balance right in this game because the armor system is expecting for damage to spread out. MWO removes all external influences of spreading out damage.

The way I look at this, is that if an aimbot can place all weapon's damage onto a single location when firing all weapons at the same time, there is an issue in the mechanics.

A locational damage system just breaks down when there is no external influences to cause misses and spread of damage.

[Triskelion]

I'd like to point something out sort of unrelated, but not entirely off-topic.

One of the largest arguments against CoF, or recoil, or anything that causes weapons to not hit dead center is usually dismissed as decreasing the amount of skill involved in a game.

I also found it funny that a lot of people claim that accuracy is more important in this game than other shooters, because it absolutely isn't. Consistency is nearly always the most important statistic, especially when kill times are far lower, or instantaneous a lot of the time.

I'd like to cite CS:GO, which is more than arguably the most competitive shooter on the market these days (there are some that would argue Quake, but honestly CS:GO is closer to MWO than Quake, as movement is lower overall and precise team placement is something that happens in CS:GO, not Quake (which is usually in a 1v1 setting.)). CS:GO has a lot of features that introduce a random element to gameplay, but because everything is so predictable and controllable it doesn't cause a problem. Plus, guns in that game even recoil in specific patterns, which means that extremely skilled players are able to place consistent hits even while firing rapidly.


This is why I like ideas like this (and honestly I'm not against movement modifiers, based on mech chassis. I'm an assault player, and I think it's rational to have to slow down and brace for a large amount of ballistics, or PPC shots), because they create a situation in which those who understand the system and respect it's limitations are rewarded. It also prevents a lot of the irritating stuff that goes on in the game right now. I'm not saying that this is a perfect system, but I do think that it's certainly a step in the right direction.

TL:DR, any idea like this can introduce non-pinpoint hits as long as the system is predictable.

[Glythe]

To be honest I thought convergence was a bad idea back at the start of the game when most mechs had about 4-5 possible weapons. But now that we are up to 12 I think we would be better off dropping it.

Another option is to let people have degrees of convergence with targeting computers. If you want perfect convergence then you need to spring for the massive targeting computer (which prevents most of the really good damage builds).

[Triskelion]

Glythe, on 04 October 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

To be honest I thought convergence was a bad idea back at the start of the game when most mechs had about 4-5 possible weapons. But now that we are up to 12 I think we would be better off dropping it.

Another option is to let people have degrees of convergence with targeting computers. If you want perfect convergence then you need to spring for the massive targeting computer (which prevents most of the really good damage builds).

that's actually not a terrible idea.
At least in some respect, a larger targeting computer could have some effect on it.

If you want to tie it in to this proposed system, you could have targeting computers reduce time for initial convergence on enemies and increase the time that it sticks when you move off and look at the background, to assist with ballistic leading. Have it stick unless you hover over another enemy (with the initial delay still taking place).

This would also improve the value of shielding a friendly, even if that doesn't happen very often in PUGs (since you get shot in the back).

[ApolloKaras]

Zyllos, on 04 October 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

The only truth I heard from Russ about CoF/Convergence is the amount of players who would hate it. But there lies the problem. I 100%, honestly, do not think you can get balance right in this game because the armor system is expecting for damage to spread out. MWO removes all external influences of spreading out damage.

The way I look at this, is that if an aimbot can place all weapon's damage onto a single location when firing all weapons at the same time, there is an issue in the mechanics.

A locational damage system just breaks down when there is no external influences to cause misses and spread of damage.

Aimbot?? Aimbot cannot help against torso twisting. It cannot lead your gauss and shoot your lasers at the same time....

There is no reason for the convergence system, I dont want a random system in where my shots go. If I want that I'll play D&D or Battletech

[Zyllos]

Saxie, on 04 October 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

Aimbot?? Aimbot cannot help against torso twisting. It cannot lead your gauss and shoot your lasers at the same time....

There is no reason for the convergence system, I dont want a random system in where my shots go. If I want that I'll play D&D or Battletech

True, but torso twisting is nothing something that should be the only way to play the game.

It should be a defensive counter measure for blocking LOS to a side. It shouldn't be the only way to survive shots because all shots hit exact locations due to convergence.

[AEgg]

Saxie, on 04 October 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

Aimbot?? Aimbot cannot help against torso twisting. It cannot lead your gauss and shoot your lasers at the same time....

There is no reason for the convergence system, I dont want a random system in where my shots go. If I want that I'll play D&D or Battletech

Convergence isn't random. It depends on implementation of course but a good UI could show you exactly where your weapons will hit. They just won't all hit the same place.

[ApolloKaras]

AEgg, on 04 October 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Convergence isn't random. It depends on implementation of course but a good UI could show you exactly where your weapons will hit. They just won't all hit the same place.

I mean for the convergence systems that are proposed. Some are even pushing RNG to see if you hit or not... unreal.

Plus I was referencing more what Russ was saying in the link

Edited by Saxie, 04 October 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Uh-uh, no way! What we've got now works just fine. The last thing we need it for PGI to "improve" targeting with convergence. It would kill Light Mechs who must move too fast and too often to stop and aim. This is something that would work best for Assaults, in my opinion, despite anyone's reassurances to the opposite. I'm still frustrated over PGI's Ghost Heat, Jump Jet, and PPC shenanigans; hands off my targeting!

PGI needs to quit listening to the hardcore gamers that make a leisure item into a sport or vocation, and approach it from the perspective that this is a GAME. Let's not make it any more complicated or buggy than it already is, and let's not further the play level disparity between the hardcore crowd and the leisure gamers.

If the hardcore nuts want this so much, then do like Star Trek Online did for their hardcore crowd that wanted extreme stuff: Make it optional. Then the hardcore tourney players can do it while the rest of us leisure gamers won't have to put up with this nonsense.

[Khobai]

What we have now mostly works fine. However there are still some problem weapons: namely AC/20s, PPCs, and Gauss.

Light and Medium mechs will never be as good as Heavy or Assault mechs as long as pinpoint convergence completely devastates them.

[IllCaesar]

Wouldn't a major way to deal with convergence is to make the weight of the weapons and the chassis itself, alongside engine rating a factor? Take, say, a typical Atlas, which has at least one energy hardpoint in each arm. Put a seven ton PPC in the right arm, and a one ton Medium Laser in the left arm, but they converge at the same speed. Its rational to think that the weight of an arm-mounted weapon's convergence would be affected by its weight - just take any person lifting a one pound weight in one of your arms and then twenty pound weight in the same arm. Now the stronger the person, the less of a disparity there would be between the time it takes to lift, and an engine would operate the same way. The higher the engine rating, the faster the convergence. Now machinery sometimes has limitations in place to prevent instances like that occuring, but I think its a reasonable way to deal with convergence of arm weapons without any significant changes.

I'm probably not the first person to think of this, but I've not seen it suggested. It serves as an alternative to the proposed targeting computer, which to me, makes little sense, as you don't need a targeting computer two things to converge, just a system of pulleys or any other alternative method of moving something far away to do it. All it takes is basic motor function in conjunction with a movement command, and given that they already exist in a Mech, a targeting computer wouldn't affect the actual ability for the arms and such to be more concise.

Now, the engine rating works in conjunction with weight, so a light mech will typically have faster convergence than a medium, a medium typically faster than a heavy, and so on. It would certainly help shake up the weight class queueing.

Edited by MarsAtlas, 04 October 2014 - 02:19 PM.

[Mercules]

Nightmare1, on 04 October 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Then the hardcore tourney players can do it while the rest of us leisure gamers won't have to put up with this nonsense.

It's not the hardcore crowd that want this. Many of them like the pinpoint convergence that leads to the current meta.

[Mystere]

Mercules, on 04 October 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

It's not the hardcore crowd that want this. Many of them like the pinpoint convergence that leads to the current meta.

^^^ This! ^^^

[Lockon StratosII]

Nightmare1, on 04 October 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Uh-uh, no way! What we've got now works just fine. The last thing we need it for PGI to "improve" targeting with convergence. It would kill Light Mechs who must move too fast and too often to stop and aim. This is something that would work best for Assaults, in my opinion, despite anyone's reassurances to the opposite. I'm still frustrated over PGI's Ghost Heat, Jump Jet, and PPC shenanigans; hands off my targeting!

Actually the example I posted above has nothing to do with light mechs stopping and firing to get perfect convergence, it's always perfect unless you break the condition, which means you can run and gun and still hit where you aim. What it does prevent is making excessive damage to single component when all weapons are fired simultaneously depending of what the condition is. let me show on another example:
Let's say that the condition is that you can't simultaneously fire weapons whose combined tonnage is more than 15 tons without getting penalized.That means that a light mech with his weapon payload of ~10 tons can fire all of them without penalty while let's say an assault with ppc/ac combo (2 ppc 2 ac5) will get penalized for firing them all at once because their combined tonnage is over said threshold.
You can set that the condition is that you can't fire without penalty if weapon damage is over 20 or whatever number you put in there, point is this isn't about making your shots not landing where you want them but about preventing you from lannding all of your weapons onto a single point in one single instant.
It will actually benefit lights and mediums more because shots that would usually blow off a section or core them will now be spread over several sections, depending of shooters silhouette and some may even miss (as shown on the right side of the picture)

Khobai, on 04 October 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

What we have now mostly works fine. However there are still some problem weapons: namely AC/20s, PPCs, and Gauss.

Light and Medium mechs will never be as good as Heavy or Assault mechs as long as pinpoint convergence completely devastates them.

This is exactly the point, to find a way that will make lighter mechs survive by limiting those crippling alphas by making them hit several areas and not one section, or making armor on mechs with lots of it count more by spreading damage instead of making a drill effect on one section from high damage (pinpoint) alphas...

MarsAtlas, on 04 October 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

Yea it is actually a good idea and people discussed it before but the main problem with it is that it would put too much stress on the server because you would have to do much more calculations when your weapons have different speeds of convergence and that was one of the reasons I posted this suggestion which although not perfect, doesn't put too much stress on servers that are already stressed out with HSR and other fixes

[That Dawg]

Its the year 2014, we already have multiple weapons systems on vehicles (boats, planes tanks etc) that effectively use a HUD to get systems that all hit close to the target (crosshairs)

Fast forward ONE thousand years.......I'm thinking that system, even if the peons dont understand it, will be vastly improved. And the clan mechs...from what I've read, should be even better in bringing weapons to bear, no?

I'm honestly flummoxed why my targeting computer does not reliably hit RUNNING mechs now??

[oldradagast]

That Dawg, on 05 October 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

Its the year 2014, we already have multiple weapons systems on vehicles (boats, planes tanks etc) that effectively use a HUD to get systems that all hit close to the target (crosshairs)

Fast forward ONE thousand years.......I'm thinking that system, even if the peons dont understand it, will be vastly improved. And the clan mechs...from what I've read, should be even better in bringing weapons to bear, no?

I'm honestly flummoxed why my targeting computer does not reliably hit RUNNING mechs now??

True, but little of that makes for a fun game. Sometimes, reality must be sacrificed for fun... otherwise, we wouldn't even have battlemechs - which are laughably impractical from a real-world viewpoint - and games would simply consist of teams firing guides missiles at each other from insanely far distances.

[Nightmare1]

Lockon StratosII, on 05 October 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:

Actually the example I posted above has nothing to do with light mechs stopping and firing to get perfect convergence, it's always perfect unless you break the condition, which means you can run and gun and still hit where you aim. What it does prevent is making excessive damage to single component when all weapons are fired simultaneously depending of what the condition is. let me show on another example:
Let's say that the condition is that you can't simultaneously fire weapons whose combined tonnage is more than 15 tons without getting penalized.That means that a light mech with his weapon payload of ~10 tons can fire all of them without penalty while let's say an assault with ppc/ac combo (2 ppc 2 ac5) will get penalized for firing them all at once because their combined tonnage is over said threshold.
You can set that the condition is that you can't fire without penalty if weapon damage is over 20 or whatever number you put in there, point is this isn't about making your shots not landing where you want them but about preventing you from lannding all of your weapons onto a single point in one single instant.
It will actually benefit lights and mediums more because shots that would usually blow off a section or core them will now be spread over several sections, depending of shooters silhouette and some may even miss (as shown on the right side of the picture)



This is exactly the point, to find a way that will make lighter mechs survive by limiting those crippling alphas by making them hit several areas and not one section, or making armor on mechs with lots of it count more by spreading damage instead of making a drill effect on one section from high damage (pinpoint) alphas...




Yea it is actually a good idea and people discussed it before but the main problem with it is that it would put too much stress on the server because you would have to do much more calculations when your weapons have different speeds of convergence and that was one of the reasons I posted this suggestion which although not perfect, doesn't put too much stress on servers that are already stressed out with HSR and other fixes

I still say nay. As a Light and Medium pilot, I really see no need for this system and believe that its implementation, however it is done, will only cause more problems than it will solve. Besides, if, as you say, it it would be based on weapon tonnage, then it will nerf Clan Mechs more than IS ones. The IS Mechs deal significant pinpoint damage while the Clan Mechs possess significant DPS spread damage. While they output greater damage then IS Mechs, it is easier to spread it across your Mech and harder for a Clanner to concentrate the damage into a single component. They've been nerfed enough already and do not need to take another hit from PGI.

Besides that, I really don't believe that convergence will be applied in the manner you suggest. If it is done, then all Mechs will have to contend with it; I can't imagine PGI implementing it as a nerf against Heavies and Assaults only. Regardless of how you would like to see it implemented, I really believe that, if done, all four classes of BattleMech will have to deal with it, and we will wind up with a lot of weapons spray all over the place. Mechs that can spray the most will wind up winning then.

So...no...let's leave this alone. Firing your weapons right now works fine. Let's not ruin it.