418 replies to this topic

[Tastian]

Russ Bullock, on 03 October 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

If someone wants to make a true impact on PGI with sized hard points - pick a mech with lots of variants and lay out all the sizes for all the hard points on all the variants

Then compare that to the current game and come up with a true audit of what builds would still exist, which ones would disappear.

Although it might help removes some "problem builds" I wonder how many very good builds it might remove.

This is an exercise I that PGI will not have time for in the next couple of months as we work on CW phase 2.

I'll bite.

[EDIT] Changing this to read as weapon class sizes - not crit or slot sizes.
[EDIT] Hardpoint limitations idea is by no means new. I found this poll by searching the forums. People seem to like the idea over ghost heat 4 to 1 http://mwomercs.com/...e__show__st__80
[EDIT] Added a Stalker study of builds that would disappear and still be viable at the bottom using the hardpoint system outlined here.
[EDIT] Updated to show the difference between the K-2 and the Jester.
So, I've gone through several mechs and fixed this. The idea is to limit hardpoint sizes. For example, the Catapult K2 has a ballistic slot in its side torsos. Instead of just being ANY ballistic, it has a ballistic slot of class 2. Meaning it can ONLY carry an AC2 or MG in the side torso. With this in mind, I'm studying several mechs with every variant for variation and removing problem builds.

Using this method, here is an energy class chart

[CLASS 1] - Small Laser, Small Pulse Laser, TAG, Flamer
[CLASS 2] - CLASS 1 + Med Laser, Med Pulse Laser
[CLASS 3] - CLASS 2 + Large Laser, ER Large Laser, Large Pulse Laser
[CLASS 4] - CLASS 3 + PPC + ERPPC

For Ballistic Weapons:

[CLASS 1] - MG, AC2
[CLASS 2] - CLASS 1 + AC5, UAC5
[CLASS 3] - CLASS 2 + LB10X, AC10
[CLASS 4] - CLASS 3 + Gauss, AC20

For Missile Weapons:

[CLASS 1] - SRM2, SRM4, Streak SRM2, LRM5, Narc, SRM2wArt
[CLASS 2] - CLASS 1 + SRM4wArt, SRM6, LRM5wArt, LRM10
[CLASS 3] - CLASS 2 + SRM6wArt, LRM10wArt, LRM15
[CLASS 4] - CLASS 3 + LRM15wArt, LRM20, LRM20wArt

[EDIT] - Also note that although dual AC20 Jagers, Quad and Hex PPC Stalkers, and Splatcats aren't a problem right now, they'd be a problem again if Ghost Heat disappeared.


First case study:

Stalker.

Problem builds: LRM and PPC boating


**Stalker 3F**
RA/LA
2x [Class 2] energy
1x [Class 3] missile

RT/LT
1x [Class 3] energy
1x [Class 2] missile


**Stalker 3H**
RA/LA
2x [Class 2] energy
1x [Class 4] missile

RT/LT
1x [Class 2] missile


**Stalker 4N**
RA
2x [Class 2] energy
1x [Class 4] missile

LA
2x [Class 2] energy

RT/LT
1x [Class 3] energy
1x [Class 2] missile


**Stalker 5M**
RA/LA
2x [Class 2] energy
1x [Class 3] missile

RT
1x [Class 2] missile

LT
1x [Class 1] missile
1x [Class 2] missile

CT
1x [Class 3] energy


**Stalker 5S**
RA/LA
2x [Class 2] energy
1x [Class 3] missile

RT/LT
1x [Class 3] energy
1x [Class 2] missile



If you notice, ALL stalker stock builds are maintained but there is greater diversity among the stalker variants. Also, LRM boats and energy boats are removed.

[EDIT] List of builds that would disappear and remain. Obviously this is not exhaustive, but I think you can get the idea that it isn't killing diversity but rather keeping the flavor of the Stalker and encouraging the use of other Stalkers and even other mechs.

Stalker builds this will destroy:

1) LRM boats higher then LRM50
2) Artemis LRM boats higher then LRM30
3) laser boats with more 3x or more(ER)(pulse)Large Lasers
4) PPC boats with 3-6 PPCs including:
5) 2 PPC with anything including:
*2 PPC, 2 Large Pulse
*2 ERPPC, 4 Streaks


Stalker (3F) builds this will keep:
1) LRM50, any mix of 6x(Small)(SmallPulse)(Med)(Flamers)(TAG)
2) LRM50, 2x(ER)LargeLaser
3) LRM30wArt, TAG, 5x(SmallPulse)Med laser
4) LRM30wArt, 2x(ER)LargeLaser
5) LRM30, any mix of 6x(Small)(SmallPulse)(Med)(Flamer)(MedPulse)(TAG)
6) LRM30, SRM12 + any mix of med/small energy weapons
7) SRM24, + any mix of 6x med/medpulse/small energy weapons
8) SRM24, 2x(ER)Large laser + any mix of 4x med/small energy weapons
9) SRM20wArt + any mix of 6x small energy weapons
10) 2x (ER)(pulse)large laser, 4x med (pulse) Laser
11) 2x (ER)(pulse)large laser, SSRM8, any mix of 4 med/small energy weapons
12) 4x LRM5wArt, any mix of 6xmed/medpulse/small energy weapons
etc...

differences between some Stalker variants:

Stalker 3H
* Can carry LRM60 max (10 more then 3F)
* Can carry LRM50wArt (20 more then 3F)
* restricted to only 4x Med Lasers and no Large lasers

Stalker 4N
* can carry LRM40 max (10 less then 3F, 20 less then 3H)
* can carry LRM40wArt max (10 more then 3F, 10 less then 3H)
* can carry same lasers as 3F

Stalker 5M
* can carry LRM55 max
* can carry SRM28 or StreakSRM10
* CT (ER)(Pulse)Large Laser

Stalker 5S
* same as 3F but 2 AMS




**Catapul tK-2**
RA/LA
1x [Class 4] energy

RT/LT
1x [Class 2] energy
1x [Class 1] ballistic

So, the K2 would be one of the only 65 ton mechs or below that could carry 2 high mounted PPCs.

**Jester**
RA/LA
1x [Class 3] energy

RT/LT
1x [Class 2] energy

CT
2x [Class 1] energy


So, you see, the K2 can carry PPCs. The Jester cannot. Clear difference.


**Raven 2X**
RA
2x [Class 2] energy

RT
1x [Class 3] missile

LT
2x [Class 3] energy


**Raven 3L**
RA
2x [Class 2] energy

LA
1x [Class 2] missile

RT
1x [Class 4] energy
1x [Class 2] missile

Edited by Tastian, 10 October 2014 - 08:22 AM.

[Tastian]

[Edit] - Changed from Crit or Slot to Class Weapons.

Next is Jagermechs. The Problem is 2xAC20 Jagers. The rest are manageable. Using this system, sadly all AC20 Jagers are removed but other ballistics kept.

**Jagermech A**

RA/LA
1x [Class 3] ballistic
1x [Class 3] missile
1x [Class 1] missile

RT/LT
1x [Class 3] energy

**Jagermech DD**

RA/LA
2x [Class 2] ballistic
1x [Class 1] ballistic

RT/LT
1x [Class 3] energy

**Jagermech S**

RA/LA
1x [Class 3] ballistic
1x [Class 2] ballistic

RT/LT
2x [Class 2] energy





Using this method, you can add 3 PPC builds to the Awesome:


**Awesome 8Q**
RA
1x [Class 2] energy
1x [Class 4] energy

RT/LT
1x [Class 2] energy
1x [Class 4] energy

H
1x [Class 1] energy


**Awesome 9M**
RA
1x [Class 4] energy

LA
1x [Class 2] missile

RT/LT
1x [Class 2] energy
1x [Class 4] energy

H
1x [Class 1] energy

CT
1x [Class 2] energy
1x [Class 2] missile


[Edit] - Added some 'trouble' stock mechs below:

**Hunchback 4P** (adding Class 1 energy to H reduces med laser boating to 8)
H
1x [Class 1] energy

RA/LA
1x [Class 2] energy

RT
6x [Class 2] energy


**Firestarter 9A** (adding Class 1 energy reduces medium lasers from 8 to 4)

RA/LA
2x [Class 2] energy

RT/LT
1x [Class 1] energy

CT
2x [Class 1] energy


[Edit] - How to make bad mechs better then a straight stock equation

**Dragon 1N**
RA
2x [Class 3] ballistic

LA
1x [Class 3] energy

LT
1x [Class 3] energy

CT
2x [Class 2] missile

Edited by Tastian, 06 October 2014 - 05:15 PM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Without at least some serious PPC quirks for the K2. I mean some SERIOUS PPC quirks, I wouldn't be for adjusting any of it's ballistic hard points (especially since anything over an A/C10 is not terribly feasible.

With a Jager being a ballistic mech, I'm not sure I'm for any hardpoint limitations on the ballistics. Now, I hate Boom Jagers, but adding weird ballistic limitations just seems weird.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 06 October 2014 - 11:27 AM.

[Zack Esseth]

The only thing coming from changes to come Hardpoint size restrictions is going to be less diversity on the Field. Its bad enough we already have mechs listed out in tiers because of hit boxes and hardpoint type. The boom Jagger is hardly an issue unless you cant watch where it moves. its too hot to run, lacks back up weapons or has a lack of ammo, and runs a fragile XL in its mini Awesome body. The K2 is already crap if you cant run Gauss in it and the Double Gauss build has many of the same issues as the Boom Jagger. The more you restrict how people can run their mechs, the more your going to force them into the same one mech to be capable of fighting with a standing chance.

The weapons them selves need to be balanced better to encourage builds that are more universal. Pinpoint needs to be fixed more so than any thing else and the best thing I can think of for that is to hard set the convergence of torso weapons on their max effective range, weapons in the arms set the same way within the arm but with the ability to converge on each other if the mech has a lower arm actuator.

Edit: I have made a forum on my idea of how to fix convergence here.
http://mwomercs.com/...re-we-go-again/

Edited by Zack Esseth, 06 October 2014 - 08:02 PM.

[Tastian]

Thanks for the reply MeiSooHaityu. The K2 is a good point. Many people have cited the fact that the ballistic slots in the K2 were intended for small ballistics. My study of the K2 looks like this:

**Catapult K2**
RA/LA
1x [3 crit] energy

RT/LT
1x [1 crit] ballistic
1x [2 crit] energy

This would eliminate quite a few large ballistic builds. Certainly It could look like this instead:


**Catapult K2**
RA/LA
1x [3 crit] energy

RT/LT
1x [5 crit] ballistic
1x [2 crit] energy

This would allow for AC5 and even UAC5s in the side torso. Anything larger seems to violate the frame.

[Alek Ituin]

As long as sized hardpoints act like they did in MW4, I'm all for it.

I'd like to be able to shove 20 MG's in a Jaeger DD because why not? I have 20 Ballistic crit slots all together, I should be able to, right? Plus...

ITZ GOT ALL DA SHOOTY BITZ! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA

Edited by Alek Ituin, 06 October 2014 - 11:32 AM.

[Xtrekker]

Personally I would avoid size limitations and just give weapons a class. Just spitballing...a "class 3" ballistics hardpoint might include AC10, LBX10, AC20, Gauss. Not that that is what it should be, just a meaningless example. We already have a size limitation with our current slot spaces.

I would probably limit the lower end too. Just because you can hang a PPC doesn't mean it would be compatible with small laser mounts.

[Scratx]

BoomJagers are a problem? They're a high risk, high reward build. You need to get really close to use those guns and generally need an XL on a mech infamous for having extremely vulnerable side torsos. I.... just don't see what's the problem, really.

Likewise with BoomCats and a lot of builds that people seem to hate or hated at some point. I just don't see the point.

Still, go ahead. Russ asked people to try to make a case for it if they're serious, so go ahead if you are. Those of us who don't think it is necessary or desirable will say our minds.

[Colby Boucher]

What scares me about hardpoint sizes is that it might make lights have way less firepower - I.E. I imagine that most light mechs couldn't put a large laser anywhere. singer / double LL builds are quite common for lights and not really OP.

[Tastian]

Thanks for the reply Zack. Innersphere mechs have alot of customization already (engine swapping, Endo and FF swapping, additional hardpoints for some weapons). Knocking out a couple builds people use may seem to knock them down a tier or two, but if this restriction was put out across the board, then most mechs would come in line. And players may even have to look at other less used mechs to get some of the builds they once used back.

[Alek Ituin]

Xtrekker, on 06 October 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Personally I would avoid size limitations and just give weapons a class. Just spitballing...a "class 3" ballistics hardpoint might include AC10, LBX10, AC20, Gauss. Not that that is what it should be, just a meaningless example. We already have a size limitation with our current slot spaces.

I would probably limit the lower end too. Just because you can hang a PPC doesn't mean it would be compatible with small laser mounts.

So much no. All of the no.

That's so unnecessarily restrictive that it kills half the reason to even play BT/MW. Which is customizing and building a Mech that is personalized to your play style. Your system would remove that almost entirely.

[Tastian]

Thanks for the reply Colby. Size restrictions could be used both ways; like quirks. For example, maybe the Raven 2X could use 2 ERLarge Lasers, but the Raven 3L could only use 1:

**Raven 2X**
RA
2x [1 crit] energy

RT
1x [3 crit] missile

LT
2x [2 crit] energy


**Raven 3L**
RA
2x [1 crit] energy

LA
1x [3 crit] missile

RT
1x [3 crit] energy
1x [3 crit] missile

[EgoSlayer]

The whole purpose of sized hard points is to eliminate ghost heat. All you've done so far is eliminate the 4PPC stalker and Boomcat/Jager, GaussCat/Jeger.

Try harder ones, like Hunchbacks and Novas and show how we don't get 9/12 ML boats becoming the new/old meta.

CN: It won't.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 06 October 2014 - 11:40 AM.

[Eddrick]

Does Artemis and PPC Capacitor count toward the crit limit?

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

People have suggested this before, and its still a terrible idea. Alot of players including myself will leave this game if it ever came to fruition, because half the reason we still play the game is because of the mech customization you can do. Very bad idea for the game as a whole.

[Tastian]

Eddrick, on 06 October 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Does Artemis and PPC Capacitor count toward the crit limit?

In my examples, I factored in Artemis as using one of the slots. I did not however factor in PPC Capacitors or future tech.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Tastian, on 06 October 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

This would allow for AC5 and even UAC5s in the side torso. Anything larger seems to violate the frame.

Again, I can understand this, but only if PPCs saw a serious quirk buff on this platform. As it stands now, the PPCs are too hot and too slow. If the K2 Platform saw a huge heat reduction to energy weapons mounted in the arms (maybe 15% or 20%) and travel time increase for PPCs, I could give up the bigger ballistics (like the ideal dual A/C10 builds).

Then the mech would adhere to the essence of the K2 build.

It would still cause an issue though because it could create a PPC and A/C5 combo build that would be great with cooler PPCs.

So now, do you drop the ballistics to A/C2s and smaller? I don't know, it seems to cause some real limitations to the chassis.

I'm honestly not sure how I feel about this (at least from a K2 standpoint).

[Ultimax]

Do not want.

If you think dual 20 jagers are a "problem build" you should be playing hello kitty online.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Awesome should be the King of PPCs.
Period.

Large Slots in every Energy Hardpoint

[Zack Esseth]

But it doesn't look or feel like it would be bringing the game to a point fixing cheap builds. You just build your cheap build on another mech, you just move around. The IS customization is crucial to how we fight the clans. A lot of what we have been finding in HHoD's project clanbuster is that we can put what we need on the chassis we need to fight with. In lore, a single shot ac20 would nock an Atlas over if it wasn't bracing. This isn't lore, but it should "at Least" have tremendous recoil! Same goes for a gauss rifle (don't make me go find the US military's investigation on Rail gun operating ground vehicles again). Pair that with changes to convergence and the only remaining problem is laser boating and LRMS, and LRMs can be fixed after ECM gets a reworking. As it is LRMs are spotty as to wether they are good or bad because of ECM. Want to put a halt on Laser vomit, increase the burn time for each laser over a certain number of lasers. That will make laser barf war so much harder.