418 replies to this topic

[Nathan Foxbane]

But can it be done without killing my Gauss Cents? Not exceptional or OP by any standard, but lots of fun and the bane of many when I still did group drops regularly.

[Pyrrho]

Rebas Kradd, on 06 October 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

You're talking about equalization. Dumbing down mechs so that others can do just as well. That's not the same as balance and it doesn't particularly promote role warf

If only it were true.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Xtrekker, on 06 October 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

The 7 light gauss Daishi wasn't amazing enough?

You do realize that is 91 tons minimum, which is impossible even with the increased free tonnage of MW4 mechs right?

Sorry if I didnt catch the sarcasm, if it was intended that way.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 06 October 2014 - 03:07 PM.

[1453 R]

Tastian, on 06 October 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

I'll bite.

So, I've gone through several mechs and fixed this. The idea is to limit hardpoint sizes. For example, the Catapult K2 has a ballistic slot in its side torsos. Instead of just being ANY ballistic, it has a ballistic slot of size 1. Meaning it can ONLY carry an AC2 or MG in the side torso. With this in mind, I'm studying several mechs with every variant for variation and removing problem builds.

Using this method, here is an energy slot chart

[SLOT SIZE 1] - Small Laser, Med Laser, Med Pulse Laser
[SLOT SIZE 2] - Slot size 1 plus Large Laser, Large Pulse Laser
[SLOT SIZE 3] - Slot size 1, Slot size 2, PPC, ERPPC


First case study:

Stalker.

Problem builds: LRM and PPC boating


**Stalker 3F**
RA/LA
2x [1 crit] energy
1x [3 crit] missile

RT/LT
1x [3 crit] energy
1x [2 crit] missile


**Stalker 3H**
RA/LA
2x [1 crit] energy
1x [6 crit] missile

RT/LT
1x [2 crit] missile


**Stalker 4N**
RA
2x [1 crit] energy
1x [6 crit] missile

LA
2x [1 crit] energy

RT/LT
1x [3 crit] energy
1x [2 crit] missile


**Stalker 5M**
RA/LA
2x [1 crit] energy
1x [3 crit] missile

RT
1x [2 crit] missile

LT
1x [1 crit] missile
1x [2 crit] missile

CT
1x [2 crit] energy


**Stalker 5S**
RA/LA
2x [1 crit] energy
1x [3 crit] missile

RT/LT
1x [3 crit] energy
1x [2 crit] missile



If you notice, ALL stalker stock builds are maintained but there is greater diversity among the stalker variants. Also, LRM boats and energy boats are removed.

More to come.

GREAT!

Now do Dragons.

Oh, wait, what's that?! All possible even remotely half-viable Dragon builds are completely removed from the game because suddenly no Dragon can mount any weapon larger than a single AC/5? WHO COULD EVER HAVE GUESSED?!

Okay. Now do Quickdraws, too.

Now do Blackjacks.

Now do Centurions.

Now do Wolverines.

Now do Kintaros.

Now do Ravens.

Now do Spiders.

Now do half to two-thirds of the 'Mechs in this game, which all require dissimilar weapon sizes from their dirt-poor, nonsensical, and typically largely pointless stock configurations to become anywhere remotely useful.

If you want to play stock 'Mechs UND NUZZING BUT STOCK 'MECHS, drop in Stock 'Mech Mondays, and/or lobby Piranha for a separate stock-only mode or more support for SMM. Don't tell the rest of us we now get to play less than a third of the game's available chassis because only those chassis have hardpoints which are actually useful in a sized hardpoints fiasco of a system.

Edited by 1453 R, 06 October 2014 - 03:08 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Rebas Kradd, on 06 October 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

You're talking about equalization. Dumbing down mechs so that others can do just as well. That's not the same as balance and it doesn't particularly promote role warfare.

I personally like the idea of Russ's quirk system, even if it is layered onto Ghost Heat. I want to see where that goes first.

Is it really dumbing down if the mech in question wasn't supposed to be able to do that anyways? Take the Gausscat K2 back in closed beta...it really shouldn't have been carrying two Gauss rifles where two MGs were.

I look at it like steroids...if the Gausscat (athlete on steroids) suddenly had their steroids (Gauss in small ballistic slots) taken away (sized hardpoints), is it really dumbing/limiting down the standouts in a certain field or is it restoring parity by ensuring that athletes compete cleanly (sized hardpoints).

Maybe the wide receiver that doesn't use steroids (or PEDs) and can only run a 4.6 second 40 yard dash time can't hang in today's NFL but might have a job in the league if all steroids/PEDs were abolished and the fastest guys were only running 4.5 (instead of 4.3).

Same goes for mechs...the Hunchback might just have a specialized role on the field if there weren't Shadow Hawks carrying AC20s around.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Lyoto Machida, on 06 October 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

Same goes for mechs...the Hunchback might just have a specialized role on the field if there weren't Shadow Hawks carrying AC20s around.

This is really one of the best examples.

What is the point of the Hunchback with the Shadow Hawk being able to mount an AC/20?

It's stupid.

[Ultimax]

Lyoto Machida, on 06 October 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

Please explain how 2 SRM6 / 2 LL / 4 ML / 2 LRM10 is a "boat"...maybe a Medium Laser "boat"

You turn all of the lasers into mediums and all of the missle hardpoints into SRMs or you leave the LLAS alone and still have a laser boat full of lasers and quad SRM or ASRM 6s.


Unless you tell me you're also going to nerf missile bays and a 6 tube, 2 slot, 3 ton SRM 6 somehow can't fit where a 10 tube, 2 slot, 5 ton LRM launcher is.

Or how about this build?

It works right off the SCR-Prime chassis, moves the 1 crit slot CERLLAS to the torsos, fills up the rest with CERMLAS which fit anywhere on any Stormcrow (every stock SCR variant comes with min CERMLAS).

And there you go, you have a current laser vomit build that is being played right now.

The best part though is that you remove it's competition, mechs that could compete but had their hardpoints restricted.

[Rebas Kradd]

Lyoto Machida, on 06 October 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

Is it really dumbing down if the mech in question wasn't supposed to be able to do that anyways?

Yes.

I get what you're saying - wide-open customization hands domination to the mechs with the best hitboxes. I hear you. But Russ's quirk system sounds like a good compensation without removing any actual builds from the game. It strikes me as the best of both worlds - role warfare and open customization. So I'd like to see where that goes first.

At any rate, the sandbox of open customization is a pretty big outlet for "fun" and I'm glad PGI is prioritizing it.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 06 October 2014 - 03:18 PM.

[Ultimax]

Lyoto Machida, on 06 October 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

Is it really dumbing down if the mech in question wasn't supposed to be able to do that anyways? Take the Gausscat K2 back in closed beta...it really shouldn't have been carrying two Gauss rifles where two MGs were.

Do you really think people would ever touch the K2 if the only thing you could slot in those B hardpoints were machine guns?


Welcome to the stock hardpoint lotto.

[Tristan Winter]

Could you just edit the OP, maybe using a table or a screenshot of an Excel sheet with everything you've done so far? It's a bit of a hassle to scroll through the whole thread to see your examples and latest updates.

[Tastian]

1453 R, on 06 October 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

GREAT!

Now do Dragons.

Oh, wait, what's that?! All possible even remotely half-viable Dragon builds are completely removed from the game because suddenly no Dragon can mount any weapon larger than a single AC/5? WHO COULD EVER HAVE GUESSED?!

Okay. Now do Quickdraws, too.

Now do Blackjacks.

Now do Centurions.

Now do Wolverines.

Now do Kintaros.

Now do Ravens.

Now do Spiders.

Now do half to two-thirds of the 'Mechs in this game, which all require dissimilar weapon sizes from their dirt-poor, nonsensical, and typically largely pointless stock configurations to become anywhere remotely useful.

If you want to play stock 'Mechs UND NUZZING BUT STOCK 'MECHS, drop in Stock 'Mech Mondays, and/or lobby Piranha for a separate stock-only mode or more support for SMM. Don't tell the rest of us we now get to play less than a third of the game's available chassis because only those chassis have hardpoints which are actually useful in a sized hardpoints fiasco of a system.

PGI is making the hardpoints. The Catapult A1 has 6 missile hardpoints but only 2 LRM15s. You could easily add a bit of freedom to the hardpoints to bring up poor mech builds like the Dragon. For example:

Dragon 1C

RA
1 [7 crit] ballistic

LA
2 [1 crit] energy

LT
2 [2 crit] energy

CT
1 [2 crit] missile


This allows the Dragon 1C to bring a Gauss and 2 ERLarge Laser.

Same with the Centurions.

In other words, you wouldn't just apply a blanket mathematical formula to the Stock Build to bring up the weapon restrictions.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ultimatum X, on 06 October 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

You turn all of the lasers into mediums and all of the missle hardpoints into SRMs or you leave the LLAS alone and still have a laser boat full of lasers and quad SRM or ASRM 6s.


Unless you tell me you're also going to nerf missile bays and a 6 tube, 2 slot, 3 ton SRM 6 somehow can't fit where a 10 tube, 2 slot, 5 ton LRM launcher is.

Or how about this build?

It works right off the SCR-Prime chassis, moves the 1 crit slot CERLLAS to the torsos, fills up the rest with CERMLAS which fit anywhere on any Stormcrow (every stock SCR variant comes with min CERMLAS).

And there you go, you have a current laser vomit build that is being played right now.

The best part though is that you remove it's competition, mechs that could compete but had their hardpoints restricted.

What? Really? You are worried about that Stalker with SRMs and Medium Lasers? Really? OH NOS.

And you keep using Omnimechs to make your point, when very few people have really taken a stab at working on this from an Omnimech perspective.

Lets focus on IS for now. Then we can work on Clans.

BY THE WAY THIS IS WHY IT WAS ******* DUMB TO INTRODUCE THE CLANS BEFORE WE HAD THE GAME SORTED OUT BUT OH WELL LETS COME OUT OF BETA AND RELEASE MORE MECH PACKS AND GOUGE OUR PLAYERS ITS COOL.

[Rebas Kradd]

Tastian, on 06 October 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

PGI is making the hardpoints. The Catapult A1 has 6 missile hardpoints but only 2 LRM15s. You could easily add a bit of freedom to the hardpoints to bring up poor mech builds like the Dragon. For example:

Dragon 1C

RA
1 [7 crit] ballistic

LA
2 [1 crit] energy

LT
2 [2 crit] energy

CT
1 [2 crit] missile


This allows the Dragon 1C to bring a Gauss and 2 ERLarge Laser.

Same with the Centurions.

In other words, you wouldn't just apply a blanket mathematical formula to the Stock Build to bring up the weapon restrictions.

So now you're cherry-picking and mincing your way through the list of mechs. How does that NOT strike you as just as arbitrary and direct as Ghost Heat? And who's doing the deciding? Who decides whether Build A shouldn't be in the game? What about Build B?

And how do you handle the suddenly angry players who really liked Build B, found a synergy with it, got attached to it, built up years of stats with it, found a way to excel with it that most players never would have, maybe didn't even do really well with it but don't mind at all, and don't really give a flying f*** about YOUR standards for battlefield roles? Are you suddenly going to decide "Well, you can't play your favorite mech anymore" for them? What about all those little niches that DO exist in the game?

It's shades of Star Wars Galaxies' NGE all over again.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 06 October 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ultimatum X, on 06 October 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

Do you really think people would ever touch the K2 if the only thing you could slot in those B hardpoints were machine guns?


Welcome to the stock hardpoint lotto.

Um, how many mechs don't get used right now? Is that really your argument?

Rebas Kradd, on 06 October 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

So now you're cherry-picking and mincing your way through the list of mechs. How does that NOT strike you as just as arbitrary and direct as Ghost Heat? And who's doing the deciding? Who decides whether Build A shouldn't be in the game? What about Build B?

And yet it will actually accomplish the job. Whereas Ghost Heat hasn't fixed crap.

[Alistair Winter]

Ultimatum X, on 06 October 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

Do you really think people would ever touch the K2 if the only thing you could slot in those B hardpoints were machine guns?
Welcome to the stock hardpoint lotto.

Uh... yes? It's by far my deadliest Catapult. I run it with quad lasers. Imagine that, running a K2 as an energy boat instead of a AC40 or gauss platform. 81.3 kph, great for sniping or hit and run brawling. With upcoming quirks, I imagine it will be even better.

[Ultimax]

Rebas Kradd, on 06 October 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

So now you're cherry-picking and mincing your way through the list of mechs. How does that NOT strike you as just as arbitrary and direct as Ghost Heat? And who's doing the deciding?

It's incredibly arbitrary.

It's just a different hardpoint lotto.


Or we could like...wait for a quirk system that PGI might develop that will grant benefits to mechs running load outs they were designed for.

That would then allow people to play what they like, instead of trying to take away from other people's fun.


Jeez, too bad PGI isn't working on something like that...

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I like the ideas presented in this thread, I don't think it goes far enough to curb hardpoint inflation, but I think it is a good first step to improving the current system (I would like to see reduced hardpoint inflation and ammo/delivery hardpoints).

This is a great way to promote Chassis diversity and build diversity since you will not be able to slap the same armament on a Catapult, Cataphact, and Jagermech. We don't need customization and build diversity, we need chassis diversity (actually PGI needs it since they sell chassis not weapons, this is the reasoning behind dropship mode).

There will be some great out-of-the-box variants that will be popular, but these can be handled with the quirk system (both positive and negative).

[Ultimax]

Alistair Winter, on 06 October 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

Uh... yes? It's by far my deadliest Catapult. I run it with quad lasers. Imagine that, running a K2 as an energy boat instead of a AC40 or gauss platform. 81.3 kph, great for sniping or hit and run brawling. With upcoming quirks, I imagine it will be even better.

So you only run 2 LLAS and 2 MLAS?

That's your awesome build?

[Rebas Kradd]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 October 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

Um, how many mechs don't get used right now? Is that really your argument?



And yet it will actually accomplish the job. Whereas Ghost Heat hasn't fixed crap.

Wait...sorry, I keep getting confused because everyone has a different complaint about Ghost Heat...WHAT do you want fixed, again? The unofficial tiering system (i.e. some mechs not being perceived as good)?

Because that's created by all kinds of things that no one fix can ever address.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 06 October 2014 - 03:28 PM.

[Ultimax]

Rebas Kradd, on 06 October 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

Wait...sorry, I keep getting confused because everyone has a different complaint about Ghost Heat...WHAT do you want fixed, again? The unofficial tiering system (i.e. some mechs not being perceived as good)?

Because that's created by all kinds of things that no one fix can ever address.

They want this system because their special snowflake mech doesn't get played, but when I say some other mechs won't get played they say "So, some mechs don't get played now!!".


Logic: this thought process has none.