60 replies to this topic

[Leo Kraeas]

Hmm. Not sure how this ended up in General Discussion. Seeing as how this talks about certain odd characteristics and does, in fact, give a suggestion on the behavior of RD... that's ok. It didn't end up in the trash.

[Farix]

For all those who claim that Radar Deprecation is OP. Radar Deprecation actually fixes a broken mechanic with LRMs. LRMs should not be able to lock onto or remain locked onto a mech where there is no LoS unless it is being painted with TAG or Narc.

[Leo Kraeas]

I would rather not go into the can of worms that is LRM, but it is worth noting that the initial version of LRMs as translated from Battletech were twice as strong in all regards as long as you had telemetry.

Needless to say, A change to RD's behavior is not necessarily out of the question. Radar Decay adds 1.5 seconds on to the current 2 seconds for a total of 3.5 seconds. So what if RD were to decrease the decay time by 1.5 seconds as a direct counter to Radar Decay? This creates a counter-play on near equal footing and easily solves a few of RD's other "quirks". By making the lock time .5 seconds for non Radar Decay mechs this solves part of the issue with invisible solids such as antennae and cabling as well as the extreme behavior put forth when combined with ECM involving TAG lasers. Frankly the other part of this solution is to make line of sight count any part of the mech that can be seen rather than just the cockpit. this would also lessen the frustration put forth by players who lose targeting data entirely when a mech walks behind a rock outcropping momentarily.

[El Bandito]

Leo Kraeas, on 06 October 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

Now, RD does come with it's own set of quirks including: Your enemy losing missile locks from ducking behind cover away from your own missiles, Losing locks from an enemy passing behind cables and antennae, missiles dumbly slamming into the ground in front of you when first firing on a newly acquired enemy who owns RD, and giving protection from TAG while under the effects of ECM.

So Radar Derp causes my first volley to always miss even when locked? CURSE YOU RADAR DERP!

Edited by El Bandito, 08 October 2014 - 09:57 PM.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

I love my RD. Without it you get hammered by LRMS, with it, you live longer and laugh harder... just never step backwards, sidestep instead, otherwise you'll still get hit.

As a side effect its also useful when hunting mechs, it chimes when an unseen mech loses a lock on you

[Kaeb Odellas]

Valore, on 07 October 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

Fun fact, most dedicated LRM boats will carry Target Decay.

Target Decay will negate the effects of Radar Dep.

So you are not invulnerable to LRM fire. You just don't get screwed over by Target Decay.

Is this the case? I thought Radar Dep totally negated Target Decay.

[jaxjace]

Id rather buy anything else for 6 million cbills.

[Xarian]

Leo Kraeas, on 08 October 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

Needless to say, A change to RD's behavior is not necessarily out of the question. Radar Decay adds 1.5 seconds on to the current 2 seconds for a total of 3.5 seconds. So what if RD were to decrease the decay time by 1.5 seconds as a direct counter to Radar Decay?

Radar Deprivation reduces target hold time by 2 seconds when you drop out of LOS. Radar Decay effectively counters it, allowing you to hold the lock for 1.5 seconds.

So what you're proposing is basically how the game already works. Don't let me get in the way of your poorly-formatted complaints, however.

[Livewyr]

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 October 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

Is this the case? I thought Radar Dep totally negated Target Decay.

It cuts it in half, I think.

[UrsusMorologus]

Immunity Toggles are harmful to gameplay

[Reno Blade]

Strange. Everyone has different ideas how RD vs TD currently works.

Afaik: RD gives instant loss of target out of LOS (even with TD).

Edited by Reno Blade, 09 October 2014 - 06:45 AM.

[Almond Brown]

For any new players reading this. Just to clarify a bit of misinformation noted earlier in the thread.

Quote

LRMs are the only weapon in the game where EVERY mech on the opposing team can fire at one target if they like because line of sight is not required.

The Bolded/underlined section is BS. if you are taking Missile fire, someone has/had LoS very recently (1.5s-3.0s depending on module load of shooter), or your Narc'd.

No missiles can be fired without some from of LoS (your own or an Ally) having been applied. The reticule simply does not lock onto unseen (by someone or some applied tech) targets.

[Xarian]

Reno Blade, on 09 October 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

Strange. Everyone has different ideas how RD vs TD currently works.

Afaik: RD gives instant loss of target out of LOS (even with TD).

I play LRM-heavy mechs with TD all the time. I never lose targets instantly after they dive behind cover. However: TD only works on mechs that you have LOS to. It doesn't affect indirect targeting obtained via ally LOS. The module has always been like this, however there's also another caveat: your TD works for your allies' indirect targeting.

The modules work exactly as I described before: RD reduces target linger time by 2.0s. TD increases target linger time by 1.5 s.

TD vs no RD: 3.5 s linger
TD vs RD: 1.5 s linger
no TD vs no RD: 2.0 s linger
no TD vs RD: 0 s linger

The thing you should take away from this is that Target Decay is a really damn good module, even if you're not running LRMs. In fact, if you're just targeting your LRMs via indirect fire, it's not even worth taking - do yourself a favor and run Seismic/RD/Sensor Range instead.

Edited by Xarian, 09 October 2014 - 09:20 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

FupDup, on 07 October 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

Radar Derp is right behind Seismic Wallhack as one of the must-have modules on every build.

Lol, you got names for everything in this game dontcha? Its kinda amusing and funny.

[Bront]

Xarian, on 09 October 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

I play LRM-heavy mechs with TD all the time. I never lose targets instantly after they dive behind cover. However: TD only works on mechs that you have LOS to. It doesn't affect indirect targeting obtained via ally LOS. The module has always been like this, however there's also another caveat: your TD works for your allies' indirect targeting.

The modules work exactly as I described before: RD reduces target linger time by 2.0s. TD increases target linger time by 1.5 s.

TD vs no RD: 3.5 s linger
TD vs RD: 1.5 s linger
no TD vs no RD: 2.0 s linger
no TD vs RD: 0 s linger

The thing you should take away from this is that Target Decay is a really damn good module, even if you're not running LRMs. In fact, if you're just targeting your LRMs via indirect fire, it's not even worth taking - do yourself a favor and run Seismic/RD/Sensor Range instead.

This is indeed correct. I've seen a light mech with TD that popped his head up every 3 seconds just to maintain locks on mechs, and there was no real way to counter it, and the LRM rain feel from the sky and tore the group a new one.

[AlphaToaster]

About a month ago I ran a warhawk-B LRM60/70 in solo and group queue using Target Decay/Sensor Range for modules. I was trying out if it was worth it to not run Radar Dep and instead use offensive modules.

Over 10 games:
7 games 1k+ damage
2 games 500ish damage
1 game 120 damage *but still 2 kills

Main difference was I had low scoring games on City maps (I somehow lead a tunnel charge but still got 2 kills), but Target Decay absolutely murders on Alpine/Forest Colony/Caustic as those maps lack a lot of hard cover anyway. I was expecting there to be some people who didn't have Radar Dep, but now it makes sense that Target Decay isn't hard countered by Radar Dep like I originally thought.

Thanks for the info guys.

[Leo Kraeas]

Quote

The modules work exactly as I described before: RD reduces target linger time by 2.0s. TD increases target linger time by 1.5 s.

TD vs no RD: 3.5 s linger
TD vs RD: 1.5 s linger
no TD vs no RD: 2.0 s linger
no TD vs RD: 0 s linger

This is exactly why I think a minor change can help solve a lot of it's problems. If RD was 1.5 seconds instead of 2.0 the chart would look like this instead:

TD vs no RD: 3.5 s linger
TD vs RD: 2.0 s linger
no TD vs no RD: 2.0 s linger
no TD vs RD: .5 s linger

That .5 seconds alleviates a lot of the small thing that happen, such as:

Quote

By making the lock time .5 seconds for non Radar Decay mechs this solves part of the issue with invisible solids such as antennae and cabling as well as the extreme behavior put forth when combined with ECM involving TAG lasers.

In addition, I would be willing to bet that it would also help with the missile bug. This bug seems to cause the first volley fired at a mech with RD to simply launch straight into the ground in front of the launcher. (This is speculation as always!)

In this case It being an exact mirrored counter is actually better for the players and the programmers.

Edited by Leo Kraeas, 10 October 2014 - 08:38 PM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Does radar deprivation cancel out target decay?

Does some type of unstoppable force versus immovable object, irresistable force paradox go down? What happens, exactly?

[Rhaegor]

Is radar deprivation worth using on an ECM light like the Raven 3L or the Kitfox?

[Lightfoot]

If you have the Adv. Target Decay module I think it allows you to retain TAG locked targets under ECM cover, but you have to have the lock-on active. I know when I just pan TAG across ECM protected mechs they drop into cover after the TAG is removed, but not if they are locked.

Rhaegor, on 14 October 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

Is radar deprivation worth using on an ECM light like the Raven 3L or the Kitfox?

It's better than AMS really.