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Call It A Tie! Black Knight/grasshopper


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#21 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 05:28 AM

View PostCoralld, on 06 October 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

The only reason why I think the BK is so popular is because of the expansion MW4 Vengeance where they introduced the BK. HOWEVER, in that game they gave the BK JJs and Omni pods which NONE of the BKs ever had.
The Black Knight is a well liked TT Mech, it is limited to who gets it but that didn't stop players from liking it.

And teh Grasshopper was a under rated Sleeper. Brawling energy zombie, with great heat management... and an ECM variant that Heavies have been needing.

#22 RockmachinE

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 05:51 AM

Guys we're not going to find a consensus. How about this:

Make both :)!

#23 Coralld

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 06:32 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 07 October 2014 - 05:28 AM, said:

The Black Knight is a well liked TT Mech, it is limited to who gets it but that didn't stop players from liking it.

And teh Grasshopper was a under rated Sleeper. Brawling energy zombie, with great heat management... and an ECM variant that Heavies have been needing.

True, but my comment still holds truth in the fact that a lot of people who's first experience with the BT universe was through MW4.
I don't mean to discount the people who like the BK through TT but those who fell in love with it through MW4 who were essentially given a none canon variant.

Edited by Coralld, 07 October 2014 - 06:33 AM.


#24 Soul Tribunal

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 06:36 AM

Nothing wrong with us loving the BK because of MW4 and all the other series games.
If that means more players for MWO, than I hardly see a problem.

-ST

#25 keith

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 06:38 AM

View PostSoul Tribunal, on 07 October 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

Nothing wrong with us loving the BK because of MW4 and all the other series games.
If that means more players for MWO, than I hardly see a problem.

-ST


all that means is u make a hero version with different bells and whistles.

#26 Alienized

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 06:40 AM

Why are poeple taling so much about the Hammerhands? wasnt it 65 tons with dual basllistic hardpoints like the jaegermech? just that it has his weapons hip-high like the Phract? not sure we need this one by all means.
surely a cool mech but really?

get the grasshopper in nao. ima put it into next tournament and go 1st with it.

#27 Gyrok

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 06:43 AM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 07 October 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

I am just amused that people's "Big Quickdraw" argument against the 'Hopper is just as useful against the Black Knight. You know, except that the BK has zero access to jump jets, and all the variants are basically exactly the freakin' same. Meanwhile, the argument for the Black Knight, that it is a 70 ton Awesome, also works for the Grasshopper except, again, it can jump.


Except BK is 75 Tons not 70 tons, and has more hardpoints.

Meaning boating meds or pulses is MUCH better on the BK because you can set it up to have more DHS.

#28 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 06:45 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 06 October 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

Why do people use such misguided argument? QD is mostly limited by it's overly large size and 60 ton weight being the smallest of the Heavy class (especially because IS 55 ton mechs have 0.5 ton JJ). Even so, QD is pretty deadly in the right hands, more so pre-Ghost Heat. Grasshopper on the other hand, is 70 tons, on the heavier end of the Heavy class and benefits more from 1 ton JJ than the QD.


This is absolutely true. Grasshopper will have more tonnage to utilize however, it will also take a much bigger engine to get the same speeds as a QKD and speed is one of the things that makes the QKD a decent mech (I run mine at 90 kph). Point is they aren't comparable mechs at all.


View PostPariah Devalis, on 07 October 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

I am just amused that people's "Big Quickdraw" argument against the 'Hopper is just as useful against the Black Knight. You know, except that the BK has zero access to jump jets, and all the variants are basically exactly the freakin' same. Meanwhile, the argument for the Black Knight, that it is a 70 ton Awesome, also works for the Grasshopper except, again, it can jump.


Yeah but the lack of JJs and its larger chassis size are actually points in the BKs favor because they both are energy platforms.

Your going to have roughly 7-9 additional tons in the BK to mount items like larger engines (for an extra DHS slot + Speed) and chassis mounted DHS which means the BK will better be able to utilize those energy weapons in both Alpha and/or Sustained fire. Basically the Grasshopper is going to have to trade a hell of alot of firepower and/or ground running speed for its jump mobility and while JJs are useful, they just aren't useful enough, not after the nerf anyway, to offset that loss of firepower.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 07 October 2014 - 06:46 AM.


#29 Deathlike

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 07:54 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 07 October 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:

while the black Knight looks cool, its a boring mech because it is in all variants boating energyweapons. that hardly makes sense to be released as a mech with variants. if PGI ever still plans to release a system where we do not need 3 variants to skill a mech, then a single black knight chassis may be fine.


I'm not sure it's "diverse" when having a missile head hardpoint only lends to 1 SSRM2, SRM2 or SRM4, and LRM5. That's it. Even the Shadowhawk has some use because it has another missile hardpoint to take advantage of.

#30 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 11:04 AM

What jump het nerf? If anything, keys are getting buffed, and are not fixed in Inner Sphere mechs. Four tons on an mlas/srm platform dedicated to jets is purely beneficial, and all the more so if you go with a longer ranged setup assuming you are allowed five+ jets.

And yes, gyrok, my bad. 75 tons on the bk, but that does little. You might be gaining two or three tons over the other one, not five, when you consider internal structure and armor weight. The tons are not worth the reduction of loadout and mobility options imo.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 07 October 2014 - 11:06 AM.


#31 Novakaine

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 02:32 PM

Tie-breaker!
Posted Image

#32 A banana in the tailpipe

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 02:55 PM

View PostSirius Drake, on 07 October 2014 - 05:09 AM, said:

We are not able to decide on a mech.
And Russ wants us to run a player council....


LOL I thought the same thing. Player councils should NOT exist for the betterment of the game.

View PostGyrok, on 07 October 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:


Except BK is 75 Tons not 70 tons, and has more hardpoints.

Meaning boating meds or pulses is MUCH better on the BK because you can set it up to have more DHS.


We already have the Orion which is vaster superior to the BK. Let it go bro. Embrace the hopper!

#33 1453 R

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 03:10 PM

View PostAliisa White, on 07 October 2014 - 06:40 AM, said:

Why are poeple taling so much about the Hammerhands? wasnt it 65 tons with dual basllistic hardpoints like the jaegermech? just that it has his weapons hip-high like the Phract? not sure we need this one by all means.
surely a cool mech but really?

get the grasshopper in nao. ima put it into next tournament and go 1st with it.


75 tons, actually.

People want the Hammerhands because it looks like the Warhammer, and since the Warhammer is unavailable because Harmony Gold is a [REDACTED] and some folks have an unhealthy fixation on the Warhammer, the Hammerhands is as close as they can get.

Unfortunately, the main issue with the Hammerhands - aside from a lack of timeline-appropriate variants - is that it's catastrophically slow. This is a 75-ton 'Mech with a 225-rated engine stock, which gives it the same stock movement profile as an Atlas. AN ATLAS. It also suffers from a paucity of hardpoints - it comes stock with two AC/10, two I-ML, and an SRM-6. Not a lot of room for modification there. All of that save the missile launcher are in the arms as well, so even if AC/20s could fit in arms with elbows in them, you'd lose out on your lasers. It is jump-capable which helps to some small degree, but its horrific engine limitations and hardpoint deficiency are still problems.

The Hammerhands just isn't very good. It may look like the Warhammer, but it sure as shootin' doesn't fight like one.

#34 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 06:21 PM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 07 October 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

What jump het nerf? If anything, keys are getting buffed, and are not fixed in Inner Sphere mechs. Four tons on an mlas/srm platform dedicated to jets is purely beneficial, and all the more so if you go with a longer ranged setup assuming you are allowed five+ jets.

And yes, gyrok, my bad. 75 tons on the bk, but that does little. You might be gaining two or three tons over the other one, not five, when you consider internal structure and armor weight. The tons are not worth the reduction of loadout and mobility options imo.



Russ used terms like "Small" and "little bit" to describe the buffs to JJs so I am not expecting much out of the changes, especially no where near what is needed to make JJs useful as a tactical tool on a heavy class mech.

Also here you go for comparison:

Grasshopper
70 tons
Endo
4 JJs
340XL (max 3 heat sinks in engine)
86.6 kph w/tweak
434 armor (max)
24 Free Critical Slots (33 if you count DHS slots in engine)
28.43 Free Tons for weapons and equipment

Blackknight
75 tons
Endo
0 JJs
360XL (max 4 heat sinks in engine)
85.5 kph w/tweak
462 armor (max)
29 Free Critical Slots (41 if you count DHS slots in engine)
33.06 Free tons for weapons and equipment (note: this is roughly 5 tons more free space than a Timber Wolf.)

So to compare, the BK has the following advantages:

28 more armor
8 more critical slots (will allow at least 2 additional DHS)
4.66 additional tons.

GH has:

4 JJs
1 kph faster

So in the end they are definitely close but still a fair amount of advantage going to the BK. Also like Gyrok stated, you would actually have a 5 free ton advantage in the BK if you equalized armor values between the two. Still even at max, the BK is giving you a useful 4.5 tons additional and the ability to mount more DHS. Now 2 DHS doesn't sound like much but you got to consider that one of those is an engine DHS which operates at 2.0 rather than 1.4 so your really getting close to the equivalent of 2.5 DHS for 2 tons of weight and again considering that both mechs are energy hungry, those 2.5 equivalent DHS will likely make a fairly significant different as far as sustained firepower.

Now is that enough of an advantage to out weight having jump capability? Honestly I don't know. Again before the JJ nerf I would have said no. Now however, with they way they are currently working, I would have to say yes, being able to mount the extra armor, 2 extra DHS, 1 in he engine and perhaps an active probe or an extra medium laser well out weights the JJ mobility. Obviously some will disagree and honestly I won't blame them because we are almost at the point of splitting hairs as far as the difference goes.


***Note: Just wanted to bring up the obvious before someone else does. Yes you can dismount the JJs on the GH and if you do so, you will come up with almost the identical tonnage but you will still end up with one less DHS in the engine and less hard points. Also if you didn't want to use JJs, what would even be the point? I mean you might as well have voted Black Knight in the first place if you don't want to use JJs.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 07 October 2014 - 06:25 PM.


#35 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 06:35 PM

View Post1453 R, on 07 October 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

75 tons, actually.

People want the Hammerhands because it looks like the Warhammer, and since the Warhammer is unavailable because Harmony Gold is a [REDACTED] and some folks have an unhealthy fixation on the Warhammer, the Hammerhands is as close as they can get.

Unfortunately, the main issue with the Hammerhands - aside from a lack of timeline-appropriate variants - is that it's catastrophically slow. This is a 75-ton 'Mech with a 225-rated engine stock, which gives it the same stock movement profile as an Atlas. AN ATLAS. It also suffers from a paucity of hardpoints - it comes stock with two AC/10, two I-ML, and an SRM-6. Not a lot of room for modification there. All of that save the missile launcher are in the arms as well, so even if AC/20s could fit in arms with elbows in them, you'd lose out on your lasers. It is jump-capable which helps to some small degree, but its horrific engine limitations and hardpoint deficiency are still problems.

The Hammerhands just isn't very good. It may look like the Warhammer, but it sure as shootin' doesn't fight like one.



Yeah that is always the problem The the most iconic mechs aside from the Timber Wolf that everyone considers must haves are the Warhammer and the Marauder. I am especially upset by the fact we can't have the Marauder because that was my favorite mech from the very first 1st person Mechwarrior game that ever came out (yes I am that old, 3.5" floppy anyone).

As far as the Hammerhands your actually missing the real main issue with that although you actually mention it. The REAL issue is that it LOOKS like the Warhammer. Harmony Gold own the art work and no matter what you name the mech or what justification you may have, if it looks like a Warhammer, they are going to claim it is a Warhammer.

Don't get me wrong, I wish it were that easy because it would be really nice to thumb your nose at HG by including the Marauder II or Marauder IIC into the game and use the justification that since they aren't "technically" the original Marauder, they aren't included but unfortunately it does work that way.

#36 Koniving

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 05:46 PM

So in honor of the ever so close poll, I did two Black Knight and Grasshopper tabletop battles.
Spoiler

View more here.

#37 Kjudoon

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 05:57 PM

View PostCoralld, on 06 October 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

Sure we can, look at Meg Griffon from Family Guy.


Posted Image

Posted Image

#38 Xtrekker

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 08:15 PM

View PostSirius Drake, on 07 October 2014 - 05:09 AM, said:

We are not able to decide on a mech.
And Russ wants us to run a player council....


Well, honestly, when this was the vote they wanted after face-tanking Clans for a couple of months, and me only running IS at the moment...

Posted Image

Was hoping for something a little more f%&k yeah, 'merica.

#39 Kjudoon

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 08:23 PM

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for dinner.

#40 Alex Warden

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 10:12 PM

View PostGyrok, on 06 October 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

No, at least the BK would be something different in a heavy mech.

The grasshopper is a bigger quickdraw, which is already a crappy mech, quirks incoming or no...


lol quickdraw crappy? there are alot worse mechs out there... and the grasshopper is really not a bad mech, and i doubt it would be bad in MWO...

the only thing that took my fun out of the quicky was the JJ nerf...before that it was clearly my favourite hit and run heavy... hopefully the new JJ tweaks will bring it back a little...

Edited by Alex Warden, 15 October 2014 - 10:13 PM.






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