44 replies to this topic

[Carrioncrows]

I wouldn't mind a tie,

But then again I feel you came to the wrong man for sympathy.

[El Bandito]

Sirius Drake, on 07 October 2014 - 05:09 AM, said:

We are not able to decide on a mech.
And Russ wants us to run a player council....

Community had decided on the Grasshopper by 5 more votes. Doesn't matter if it's a meter or a mile, a win is a win. Considering the fact that many players voted for the BK solely due to cooler sounding name and Monty Python quote, the GHR deserves every bit of that victory.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 October 2014 - 10:41 PM.

[Kmieciu]

Both mechs would be DOA compared to a Timber Wolf, or even a Cataphract.

No point in a 75 ton IS energy boat while PPC remain useless.

Clans still have a clear advantage at medium range laser-boating (C-ERML &C-LPL> IS LL).

In order to remain competitive you have to go close range and boat IS ML. Of course then you have to face ultra-light clan SRMs launchers. Bad idea.

[Kolonel Matt]

Viktor Drake, on 07 October 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

Russ used terms like "Small" and "little bit" to describe the buffs to JJs so I am not expecting much out of the changes, especially no where near what is needed to make JJs useful as a tactical tool on a heavy class mech.

Also here you go for comparison:

Grasshopper
70 tons
Endo
4 JJs
340XL (max 3 heat sinks in engine)
86.6 kph w/tweak
434 armor (max)
24 Free Critical Slots (33 if you count DHS slots in engine)
28.43 Free Tons for weapons and equipment

Blackknight
75 tons
Endo
0 JJs
360XL (max 4 heat sinks in engine)
85.5 kph w/tweak
462 armor (max)
29 Free Critical Slots (41 if you count DHS slots in engine)
33.06 Free tons for weapons and equipment (note: this is roughly 5 tons more free space than a Timber Wolf.)

So to compare, the BK has the following advantages:

28 more armor
8 more critical slots (will allow at least 2 additional DHS)
4.66 additional tons.

GH has:

4 JJs
1 kph faster

So in the end they are definitely close but still a fair amount of advantage going to the BK. Also like Gyrok stated, you would actually have a 5 free ton advantage in the BK if you equalized armor values between the two. Still even at max, the BK is giving you a useful 4.5 tons additional and the ability to mount more DHS. Now 2 DHS doesn't sound like much but you got to consider that one of those is an engine DHS which operates at 2.0 rather than 1.4 so your really getting close to the equivalent of 2.5 DHS for 2 tons of weight and again considering that both mechs are energy hungry, those 2.5 equivalent DHS will likely make a fairly significant different as far as sustained firepower.

Now is that enough of an advantage to out weight having jump capability? Honestly I don't know. Again before the JJ nerf I would have said no. Now however, with they way they are currently working, I would have to say yes, being able to mount the extra armor, 2 extra DHS, 1 in he engine and perhaps an active probe or an extra medium laser well out weights the JJ mobility. Obviously some will disagree and honestly I won't blame them because we are almost at the point of splitting hairs as far as the difference goes.


***Note: Just wanted to bring up the obvious before someone else does. Yes you can dismount the JJs on the GH and if you do so, you will come up with almost the identical tonnage but you will still end up with one less DHS in the engine and less hard points. Also if you didn't want to use JJs, what would even be the point? I mean you might as well have voted Black Knight in the first place if you don't want to use JJs.

The problem is, you just made the perfect argument for the Grasshopper over the Black Knight with your note at the end. When everything is broken down, the armor value difference is less than one tons worth of points. The speed is essentially equal. With the exception of a single extra heatsink in the engine, the slot count is the same simply for the reason that you yourself mentioned, you can remove the jump jets. As far as hardpoints for weapons, it could be a toss up as to which has more. Given the history of mech releases and hardpoints, it could be anything. With community warfare incoming, we have another difference, weight. With a hard cap on maximum weight, 5 tons could be the difference between taking a Centurion vs. a Shadow Hawk, or an Atlas vs. a Banshee, etc. In fact, if we break down the actual differences:

Grasshopper
-jump jets as an option
-lighter, cheaper engine needed to attain same speed
-cheaper upgrade to endo steel
-lower weight

Black Knight
-single extra heatsink allowed due to engine
-28 additional points of armor (max)
-.66 tons extra weight

There is also the probability that, if we use the Cataphract and the Orion as examples, the Black Knight will cost something like 750,000 more cbills, comparatively. In fact, using one of each and using the upgrades you suggested (choosing a variant with a standard engine for each that can fit the equipment listed above), the estimated cbill difference will be just a bit shy of 1 million cbills.

The real vote then becomes:

1) Pay more and get a small increase in armor, a single extra heatsink, and a half ton of usable weight (Black Knight)
2) Pay less and get the option of greater mobility and a lower drop weight for CW (Grasshopper)

All other aspects are equal.
Thinking on it even further, due to the same number of slots, you would likely have to reduce armor a bit in order to have the weight for the Black Knight to actually use that extra double heatsink, given otherwise identical loadouts of course. For the sake of simple rounding and being able to have a useful available weight, reducing the armor of the Grasshopper to 416 gives us a whole number of 33 tons of available weight. The Black Knight would have to have its armor reduced to 432 for 34 tons of available weight. This gives you a single extra heatsink, but only 16 points of extra armor, spread over the mechs body. We can then simulate the hottest, heaviest armament that the frames can carry, 2 ER PPCs and 2 ER Large Lasers while being able to fit DS in the available space. We are stuck here as the Black Knight has exactly 1 slot free and the Grasshopper none. Neither have any available weight. Even if lighter weapons were used, you would likely run into a crit slot issue unless you could go light enough to forgo the endo steel on them and free up 14 slots. However, with 7 slots being either in the torso, head, or legs, you would only likely get a few additional heatsinks on either model, if you could get the weight balanced out. Either way, this should be one of the hottest, heaviest builds. With each one being elite, you would have 34% efficiency on the Grasshopper, and 35% on the Black Knight. Not enough to actually matter. And remember that anything you can do to one you could likely do to the other due to extremely similar stock loadout locations.

The final equation then becomes:

1) Higher cost, a single extra heatsink, lower potential mobility, 5 extra tons removed from CW drop weight (comparatively)
2) Lower cost, one fewer heatsink, higher potential mobility, 5 tons available for CW drop weight (comparatively)

With the Grasshopper, not using the jump jets gives you a lighter, cheaper Black Knight that should run fractionally hotter.

I, however, will likely not pilot either as I prefer something that can have at least a single ballistic weapon. In this regard, the Cataphract and the Orion better suite my particular play style.

tldr, the Grasshopper is the far superior of the two due to its lighter weight (for CW), lower price, and greater potential mobility at the cost of a negligible increase in heat due to having a one fewer possible heatsink.