20 replies to this topic

[darkezero]

Do the engine extra heat sink slots count as internal or external in terms of double heat sink operation?

(if this has already been answered in a clear-cut defined, just point me there please. All I've seen is "internal counts as double while external are 1.4," which hasn't told me if those engine slots count as internal or external)

Many thanks

[DivineEvil]

They count as external, meaning only up to 10 engine heatsinks are counted as 2.0 heat efficiency.

[Koniving]

As Divine said.
You can play with it here.

[Jeffrey Wilder]

Advantage is internal slots are space savers although it counts as external.

[Kmieciu]

PGI's goal was to make the heat system as convoluted as possible, so the new players don't grasp the basics too quickly.

Just kidding. At the time then they introduced the DHS it was a giant mess: PGI itself did not now how they worked. First they denied the problem, but when the players tested them they said it was intentional design.

In the end it was a correct decision, because a Timberwolf stuffed with 25 true 2.0 external DHS would be even more overpowered than it is now.

[darkezero]

Awesomesauce. Many thanks.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

Kmieciu, on 06 October 2014 - 11:14 PM, said:

PGI's goal was to make the heat system as convoluted as possible, so the new players don't grasp the basics too quickly.

Just kidding. At the time then they introduced the DHS it was a giant mess: PGI itself did not now how they worked. First they denied the problem, but when the players tested them they said it was intentional design.

In the end it was a correct decision, because a Timberwolf stuffed with 25 true 2.0 external DHS would be even more overpowered than it is now.

Given how often we shut down in our twolves AND get large chunks blown off us, I'd hardly say a Twolf was overpowered anymore.

[Kmieciu]

AH Keira_NZ, on 06 October 2014 - 11:26 PM, said:

Given how often we shut down in our twolves AND get large chunks blown off us, I'd hardly say a Twolf was overpowered anymore.

Show me an IS Heavy with 25 DHS, 58.2 damage alpha strike, 400+ meter range and 89kph speed and we can talk.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

You realise its a Clan Mech right... its MEANT to be better than any equivalent weight IS machine. If you can't grasp that fact you are doomed to whine forever.

So one on one, it may be better.

But when they begin Clan vs IS fights and the Clan are out numbered, AND your heavy gets paired with a 150kph light ecm scout... its about even.

[IraqiWalker]

Kmieciu, on 07 October 2014 - 12:01 AM, said:

Show me an IS Heavy with 25 DHS, 58.2 damage alpha strike, 400+ meter range and 89kph speed and we can talk.

Show me a clan mech that can fire 6 MLs without generating more than 30 heat, and we can talk.

Also, if you did the math, you'd know that any DHS above 18 are giving you too much in diminishing returns to be worth it.

Most clan mechs end up running almost equal numbers of DHS to their IS counterparts, and coupling that with their high heat systems, they always have much less heat efficiency than their IS counterpart.

If you're going to give arguments, at least show both sides. Don't do incompletes.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 07 October 2014 - 01:00 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

IraqiWalker, on 07 October 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

Show me a clan mech that can fire 6 MLs without generating more than 30 heat, and we can talk.

Also, if you did the math, you'd know that any DHS above 18 are giving you too much in diminishing returns to be worth it.

Most clan mechs end up running almost equal numbers of DHS to their IS counterparts, and coupling that with their high heat systems, they always have much less heat efficiency than their IS counterpart.

If you're going to give arguments, at least show both sides. Don't do incompletes.

There is no IS counterpart to the Timberwolf which includes many of the features; 26DHS(~50% effic), 50+ Alpha, 89kph, 440+ armor, half-zombie, and half damage out to 650-850, JJ support. The Cataphract and the Orion just don't currently challenge it. So, please elaborate on what you mean exactly. What you are claiming seems rather incorrect and not believable.

IraqiWalker, on 07 October 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

Show me a clan mech that can fire 6 MLs without generating more than 30 heat, and we can talk.
If you're going to give arguments, at least show both sides. Don't do incompletes.

4x C/ERML is damn near equal to 6 Vanilla Mediums damage wise not to mention the clan versions do half damage at 657 meters while the IS versions only do half damage at 450 meters. Actually, 4x C/ERML is more similar to 3x IS Large Lasers. This also doesnt take into account that heat-scaling triggers are even steven between ML and C/ERML.

I am sorry, its just that when you said "find me a clan mech that can fire 6 med lasers with 30 heat", it just struck me as really lame.

anyways.....

back on topic, heres some extra details on MWO heatsinks

https://docs.google.....g263f6502b_123

Edited by Kin3ticX, 07 October 2014 - 02:11 AM.

[Kmieciu]

IraqiWalker, on 07 October 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

Show me a clan mech that can fire 6 MLs without generating more than 30 heat, and we can talk.

If you're going to give arguments, at least show both sides. Don't do incompletes.

In order to compete with the "laservomit" TBW at range, an IS mech would have to use 6 LL (54 damage alpha). That's 71.99 heat if you didn't know.

5xC-ERML+2xC-LPL deal 58 damage for 48 heat. OMG! Those Clan lasers are so hot! But actually IS counterpart would be much hotter.

So how about short range? That would have to be 2xLPL+7xML for 56,2 damage and 47,2 heat. Wow. That would almost match the effectiveness of clan lasers inside 270 meter range. Too bad there is no IS mech that could effectively mount those weapons. Unless you want to try them on a Hunchback :-)

Hey, but don't ask me. Ask Energy. Let him tell you what build he did use to win the tournament.

Edited by Kmieciu, 07 October 2014 - 03:01 AM.

[Training Instructor]

Ghost heat= garbage
1.4 dhs= garbage

[ExoForce]

Why externals heat sinks are called double heat sinks?

Onepointfour HS is better!

[Shlkt]

DivineEvil, on 06 October 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

They count as external, meaning only up to 10 engine heatsinks are counted as 2.0 heat efficiency.

This is correct, but just to be abundantly clear... if your engine has a rating below 250 then even the additional required heat sinks count as external. For example, a 200 engine comes with 8 internal HS and you must manually add at least 2 external HS. So for heat efficiency use a 250+ engine whenever possible.

Edited by Shlkt, 07 October 2014 - 07:54 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

ExoForce, on 07 October 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

Why externals heat sinks are called double heat sinks?

Onepointfour HS is better!

Because with double basics, they are actually 2.23 heatsinks (when you have under 17 of them). So even better than DHS. Especially coupled with the insane heat thresholds we get from them (some mechs can get an excess of 90 heat cap.

Kin3ticX, on 07 October 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

There is no IS counterpart to the Timberwolf which includes many of the features; 26DHS(~50% effic), 50+ Alpha, 89kph, 440+ armor, half-zombie, and half damage out to 650-850, JJ support. The Cataphract and the Orion just don't currently challenge it. So, please elaborate on what you mean exactly. What you are claiming seems rather incorrect and not believable.

I might kinda give you the Timberwolf, because yes, right now it's a bit too strong, but both the cataphract and the Orion can stand up to it.

It's mobility is a very strong asset, but even with those 26 DHS, it's still hotter than most of the IS builds it faces running 18 DHS.

Kin3ticX, on 07 October 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

4x C/ERML is damn near equal to 6 Vanilla Mediums damage wise not to mention the clan versions do half damage at 657 meters while the IS versions only do half damage at 450 meters. Actually, 4x C/ERML is more similar to 3x IS Large Lasers. This also doesnt take into account that heat-scaling triggers are even steven between ML and C/ERML.

I am sorry, its just that when you said "find me a clan mech that can fire 6 med lasers with 30 heat", it just struck me as really lame.

That was in response to his silly request that ignored many other factors. So I mimicked it back at him. Just to show how ridiculous it is to request a neat impossible proof, that also ignores 99% of all other factors.

Kmieciu, on 07 October 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

In order to compete with the "laservomit" TBW at range, an IS mech would have to use 6 LL (54 damage alpha). That's 71.99 heat if you didn't know.

That's your first mistake right there. Actually make that 2. IS mechs don't work the same way. So why try and build them in a similar fashion? Clans have the range advantage, until you realize that, and stop trying to compete at range, no number of buffs and nerfs will actually help you.

When someone asks me for an IS heavy that can compete with the laser vomit build at range, I tell them to not bother. If they want an IS heavy that can compete with the laser vomit build, then I give them an Orion with STD 300 +AC20+SRMs+MLs. Get into close range, and win with that PP FLD and cooler running weapons.

Kmieciu, on 07 October 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

5xC-ERML+2xC-LPL deal 58 damage for 48 heat. OMG! Those Clan lasers are so hot! But actually IS counterpart would be much hotter.

So how about short range? That would have to be 2xLPL+7xML for 56,2 damage and 47,2 heat. Wow. That would almost match the effectiveness of clan lasers inside 270 meter range. Too bad there is no IS mech that could effectively mount those weapons. Unless you want to try them on a Hunchback :-)

Good job, ignore the burn time, cycle time (C-ERLPL's burn time is literally double that of the IS LPL), and the fact that neither the T-Wolf, nor the Summoner can mount 7 energy weapons. If you wanna bring assaults (only the DWF and Gargoyle D variant with A arms can mount more than 6 energy weapons) into it, fine. I'll pit the Wubshee against any energy boat. It can match them, and have a very fair chance at wrecking them.

Kmieciu, on 07 October 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

Hey, but don't ask me. Ask Energy. Let him tell you what build he did use to win the tournament.

Good for him. I'm still pretty sure he'd be wrecking face with almost any other mech anyways. Yes, the competitive players will gravitate towards the most efficient/broken set ups possible, however, that's still a chassis problem, not a weapons problem.

Wait until the Hammerhands, Flashman, or any of the other 75 tonners the IS has (that can give the twolf a run for it's money) come into play, and then we'll see.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 07 October 2014 - 04:35 PM.

[Kmieciu]

IraqiWalker, on 07 October 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

and the fact that neither the T-Wolf, nor the Summoner can mount 7 energy weapons.

Dude, you really don't know why all the competitive players run TBR-C ? I think there is no point in arguing anymore.
TBR-C 5xERML 2xLPL
You can even put 7 energy on a Stormcrow. But you cannot boat lasers on a Summoner. That's one of the reasons why it sucks.

Edited by Kmieciu, 07 October 2014 - 10:45 PM.

[ExoForce]

IraqiWalker, on 07 October 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

Because with double basics, they are actually 2.23 heatsinks (when you have under 17 of them). So even better than DHS. Especially coupled with the insane heat thresholds we get from them (some mechs can get an excess of 90 heat cap.

Thanks for this info, didnt know that , I will sit in the corner and then do my homework....

Edited by ExoForce, 08 October 2014 - 09:22 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

ExoForce, on 08 October 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Thanks for this info, didnt know that , I will sit in the corner and then do my homework....

Helps that the invisible HS in the engines are actually 2.0 value

Invisible being the key word
HS you have to stick in to balance out sub-250 grade engines are 1.4.
HS you stick in 275+ grade engines also count as 1.4

Koniving has a link to a website that does the math, but I keep losing the link.

[ExoForce]

http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/

I never thought that unlocking skills will increase heat sink dissipation above 2.
I thought they were *nerfed* before unlocking skills, and normal value after unlock...