16 replies to this topic

[HekiDanjo]

I enjoy medium mechs...or more to the point the idea of a medium mech; a switch hitter that can back up the lights until the heavy hitters arrive or escort the assault mechs or throw survival to the wind and be a striker. Lately heavy mechs fill those roles much better. They can be just as fast, much better armored and carry more firepower. So not only can we be instantly obliterated by really heavy hitters but we don't really have a role that couldn't be better filled by another mech.

Why not give options for more armor and/or bigger engines? I expect there would need to be some tweaking to avoid min/max abuse but how fast/armored could a 40-55 ton mech become without some serious sacrifices? This would allow mediums to become the battlefield workhorses they were meant to be.

[FupDup]

In terms of engines, the only ones that really could use it are most BJ and Vindi variants (should be at least 250 at the minimum). The rest of the mediums wouldn't be make much good use of the bigger engines due to eating up weapon tonnage. Increasing armor would be strange and would mess up the armor ratios between the classes if none of the others got increased accordingly.

Ideally, mediums would get rescaled so they lie nicely between lights and heavies in terms of physical dimensions...but that probably won't happen, even though it's been a known issue since forever and they keep releasing even more poorly scaled mediums to make the issue even worse.

Something more within our grasp of +/- stat bandaids is the upcoming quirk pass, which might/should give serious lovin' to the multitude of bad mediums (only a few aren't bad or at least sub-par).

[Xeraphale]

The biggest problem is not the size of the mech or the payload it can carry. The problem is that medium mechs are meant to be far more common; they are in lore. It's down to the fact that mediums represent better value for C-bills but this game tries to make up a team of 3/3/3/3 when it should be more like 3/5/2/2 or 3/4/3/2

[HekiDanjo]

Even a jump to 3/4/3/2 wouldn't help. The match wait times when I play are almost identical to that of lights and it's enticement for darn few people. It still wouldn't make the vast majority of medium mechs fun.

I do have a lot of hope for quirks but this was just a thought. Honestly giving up the weapon space for an engine would be the entire point. It would effectively allow a medium pilot to choose to be a slightly more survivable scout or capture mech. I wouldn't be asking for gobs and gobs of armor that would be unbalancing, in most cases just a few more points would allow a medium to survive rounding the wrong corner (even if heavily damaged).

It's just that of late, the class seems to occupy the worst of both worlds.

[totgeboren]

There are mediums with big engines. I often run around in my CN9-D with an XL360, and I got enough armour to not feel squishy. It goes over 128 kmph, enough to chase down lights who try to use big weapons, and also fast enough to outflank and do stuff like that.
Yesterday I ran around the map on mining collective, killed two mechs who were left far behind the rest of the group by alpha strikes to the back (never knew what hit them), then continued to hit-and-run. Killed one DW, one Raven, one Vindi and one TW (last one was badly hurt when I got to him, my 2x machine guns critted him to death).

But yeah, most mediums only really have the weight available for some missiles if they want to pack a punch. Lights or heavies tend to do just about everything else better than mediums.

Edited by totgeboren, 07 October 2014 - 06:14 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Well, to me anyway, this is how I see Mediums...

Pros:
*Faster and more maneuverable than a heavy
*Better total damage potential and DPS than a light (Ex. 6 MLasers cool much better in a medium than a light). Allows for longer sustained fire.

Cons:
*Similar sizes to some heavies, yet lighter armor and a bit too slow (unless a Cicada) to take advantage of the higher speeds.


I due to the stuff listed above, I try to use mediums mostly as harassers or fire support. Let a heavier team mate agro the enemy, and then slip in.

Light can do this too, but lights can't carry the heavier payloads (A/C20 for instance).

Its tricky because the light can get out of harms way quicker and that speed is nice. A medium can still be a good option (nothing quite like a 90ish KPH Hunch with an A/C20), but mediums definently need to be pickier about their battles.

[Eddrick]

Being able to fit bigger Engines will help some.

But, you can't really change the fact that Mediums are not specialists. Hybrids never become popular in an environment were people like to specialize.

The reason Mediums are so abundant on battle fields in lore is because of WAR COST. Mediums are cheep and efficiant to field.

[Rebas Kradd]

Xeraphale, on 07 October 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

The biggest problem is not the size of the mech or the payload it can carry. The problem is that medium mechs are meant to be far more common; they are in lore. It's down to the fact that mediums represent better value for C-bills but this game tries to make up a team of 3/3/3/3 when it should be more like 3/5/2/2 or 3/4/3/2

Yes, but PGI has to think in terms of 12v12 balance and player satisfaction. If a player wants a medium, they need to be able to take a medium.

The mediums would benefit most from greater speed and C-bill earnings. Edge them closer to light mech territory, but just a bit slower and with a little more firepow.er

[Killstorm999999]

Eddrick, on 07 October 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

The reason Mediums are so abundant on battle fields in lore is because of WAR COST. Mediums are cheep and efficiant to field.

Indeed.

Ideally, the game would have been designed with war costs in mind. I as a player should have easier access to medium mechs, and therefor I would be more likely/able to field them. Of course, the F2P model and the idea of permanent progress (you cant lose any mechs you buy) is not compatible with such a design.

[kapusta11]

Why not just reduce problematic mediums in size, they have paper armor yet not "that high" speed. Some of them just don't have "hard to hit single component consistently" shield like Stormcrow and Shadowhawk do.

[Eddrick]

kapusta11, on 07 October 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

Why not just reduce problematic mediums in size, they have paper armor yet not "that high" speed. Some of them just don't have "hard to hit single component consistently" shield like Stormcrow and Shadowhawk do.

The devs mentioned that resizing the mechs would be very time consuming and costly (Time=Money). But, I think it would be worth it. It costing a lot of time and money is their fault for not getting it right the first time.

[Asyres]

Eddrick, on 07 October 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

The devs mentioned that resizing the mechs would be very time consuming and costly (Time=Money). But, I think it would be worth it. It costing a lot of time and money is their fault for not getting it right the first time.

I'm not sure I understand this sentiment. The devs do not have unlimited resources, so any rework of older mech models would take the place of the development of new mechs.

That aside, reducing their size wouldn't do that much to make them better - I don't have a harder time hitting a Hunchback than a Centurion or Shadowhawk or Griffin, for example, so why spend all that effort? Just so everything looks right with the world?

[Eddrick]

Asyres, on 07 October 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

I'm not sure I understand this sentiment. The devs do not have unlimited resources, so any rework of older mech models would take the place of the development of new mechs.

That aside, reducing their size wouldn't do that much to make them better - I don't have a harder time hitting a Hunchback than a Centurion or Shadowhawk or Griffin, for example, so why spend all that effort? Just so everything looks right with the world?

A little boost in making it harder to hit the component you are aiming for can go a long way. Not hitting the intended component is worth much more in any amount of armor they can add to it.

It wouldn't have much effect on people that just aim to hit the target at all. But, it does help mitigate the effect of pinpoint convergance.

[Fishbulb333]

Maneuverability and agility (instead of just speed) being tied to engine size is the biggest obstacle to medium's success in my opinion. Most mediums should be able to out-maneuver most heavies, but due to this weird design decision, they can't.

[Asyres]

Eddrick, on 07 October 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

A little boost in making it harder to hit the component you are aiming for can go a long way. Not hitting the intended component is worth much more in any amount of armor they can add to it.

It wouldn't have much effect on people that just aim to hit the target at all. But, it does help mitigate the effect of pinpoint convergance.

Personally, I don't have a lot of trouble hitting where I'm aiming on a mech going ~100 kph, regardless of its size. A mech's ability to spread damage is almost entirely a function of it's geometry and hitboxes, except at very high speeds - or versus non-pinpoint weapons such as lasers.

Yeah, reducing the size of certain mediums would help those chassis a little bit - but it would do pretty much nothing to help the weight class as a whole.

[Vassago Rain]

Just shrink them.

Problem solved.

[Xarian]

Tonnage matching and quirks will even out the disparity between the heavier mediums and the lighter mediums.

Currently, heavier mediums play like a "fast Heavy", and lighter mediums play like a "well-armed Light". You have a few choices when it comes to mediums:

• Missiles - Anyone with at least 4 launchers can spam LRM5. It's pretty decent.
  
• Striker - Fast, high alpha (ML or MPL, SRMs, AC20 or LBX10). Run in, hit once, dive behind cover. Wait until the fight starts so you don't get shot up.
  
• Bug Hunter - Moderately fast, streaks up the wazoo, beagle, MLs if you have room. Escort your fat assaults.
  
• Sniper - Get a PPC or a couple ERLL, use your JJs to get to annoying positions, and shoot people in the head. Cicada with ECM does it pretty well.
  
• NARCer - Very fast, use NARC. Deadly if team is set up to support it.