336 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

IceSerpent, on 09 October 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

The idea is to replace ghost heat and gauss rifle "quirks" with a solution that is more intuitive and actually works.

I once asked Russ about the Gauss charge-up mechanic, and this was his response.







So please do not be under any illusion that sized hardpoints would see the Gauss rifle charge up disappear.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ultimatum X, on 09 October 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

I once asked Russ about the Gauss charge-up mechanic, and this was his response.

So please do not be under any illusion that sized hardpoints would see the Gauss rifle charge up disappear.

Once people started actually TRYING to use the Gauss Rifle after the charge was added, they realized the charge up really wasn't an issue and are now back to brawling with them at will.

So that's kind of dumb.

[Josef Nader]

Why Run, on 09 October 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

None of that is OP. It would be more diverse than what we have not, but NONE of that is OP. Sorry, OP was JMS w/ Ac20s pre NERF-SLAM. K2 + PPCs/Gauss (still pretty strong for a 65ter - just replaced by better builds (faster Timber - also heavier). Sorry, nothing you've mentioned is scary or different it's all part of a broader array of viable mechs that results from tweaking a few builds through hardpoint limits and simplifying heat. I guess you can call analysis nitpicking, but meta was JMS at 65t, not a mech 100t heavier with a couple different back up weapons and much slower. Like you said, I"m sure the Crab will take a few to the rear torso too, as it crawls around.... Much like the DeadWolves now... Ac2 troll builds would be back, but they aren't OP, just obnoxious - much like LRM rain.



What are you talkin about? No way would you limit stock builds. Thats nonsense. PPCS would still be HOT, but running 1 of them would not be game breaking because of mechs running 6 of them, because there would be none. Running 12 MLs would still be hot as heck, it already is without ghost heat. The point is MOST stock builds are completely USELESS In the game.

Okay, so let me get this perfectly straight, because I'm losing brain functionality here.

The 85t 4x PPC Stalker that prompted the introduction of ghost heat in the first place is OP, but the 85t 4x PPC Warhawk with harder hitting weapons, more heatsinks, and a bigger engine is a non-issue.

The fairly slow, flimsy JM6 with it's terrible hitboxes, low ammo count, lack of backup weapons, and reliance on XL engines is OP as hell, but the KGC, which will be able to up it's engine to a 325 and 350 standard engine with upgrades (giving it a speed between ~57-62 kph) AND pack enough ammo and backup weapons to stay the fight while having twice the armor of the JM6 is hunky doory.

I'm really trying my best to wrap my head around this cognitive dissonance.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 October 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

False.

And the people in Closed Beta did not do a good enough job fighting with PGI, which is why we are where are now.

With a reasonably well-balanced game with a very close weapon balance and a huge stable of viable mechs. Remember, "viable" is not the same as "top tier competitive." Competition is a different bird to the game as a whole, and balancing exclusively around the competitive scene leads to a very dull game, as competition is generally about removing as many factors as possible from the formula and running that formula as efficiently as possible. There is no room in the top tier of competition for more than a handful of mechs. We can't focus entirely on the top echelon of play here.

The question is "can I take this mech into a pug and do well with it? Can I take it into a team battle and do well with it?

The answer to the first one is true for every mech in the game. The second one cuts out a number of mechs, but the quirk system promises to increase their viability in this arena.

Edited by Josef Nader, 09 October 2014 - 11:59 AM.

[1453 R]

Serpent, are you really, really, REALLY advocating that Piranha should restrict 'Mechs from using their stock configurations? "Limit the Warhawk from packing quad PPCs by restricting its energy hardpoints", you say. What do you do for the Warhawk-Prime then, sell it unarmed?!

You asked for "nasty possibilities" for alpha Gigaspike builds that Ghost Heat is currently eliminating and which sized hardpoints would not eliminate, the man came up with a half-dozen options out of thin air. And then you're telling him those options aren't valid, try again?

Seriously, Serpent. I get that you're convinced that sized hardpoints are the ultimate be-all-end-all balance answer for each and every problem facing MWO, but come on. Try and be fair, at least!

[Why Run]

40 PP/FLD with HIGH heat (even without ghost heat) - Masakari, is far inferior to Gauss/PPC combo of lighter mechs. Chomp on that, I'll see you all tomorrow. You're not going to alpha that more than once with proper heat mechanics. And even if you can potentially alpha and hide thats still lowering TTK vs. the Gauss/PPC combo. Gauss is still a brawling weapon, just not as easy for new players, for anyone who's played long enough, as was mentioned it actually saves ammo and has a reverse effect.

(You could also down quirk a few choice OP builds - lower heat cap, without affecting the weapon across normal builds. Which of course is the real point).

Edited by Why Run, 09 October 2014 - 12:08 PM.

[Josef Nader]

Why Run, on 09 October 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

40 PP/FLD with HIGH heat (even without ghost heat) - Masakari, is far inferior to Gauss/PPC combo of lighter mechs. Chomp on that, I'll see you all tomorrow. You're not going to alpha that more than once with proper heat mechanics. And even if you can potentially alpha and hide thats still lowering TTK vs. the Gauss/PPC combo. Gauss is still a brawling weapon, just not as easy for new players, for anyone who's played long enough, as was mentioned it actually saves ammo and has a reverse effect.

(You could also down quirk a few choice OP builds - lower heat cap, without affecting the weapon across normal builds. Which of course is the real point).

So swap two of those ERPPCs for the Gauss-packing omnipod that comes on the -B variant. 35 PPFLD damage with 5 damage to the two adjacent components on a mech you couldn't -force- to overheat if you tried, and that's just with the base heatsinks. We're not even factoring in backup weapons or bonus heatsinks.

I'm gonna keep saying it till I turn blue; you guys are decrying a small handful of mechs while completely ignoring other mechs that can run identical loadouts that would NOT be solved by sized hardpoints because they're stock builds run identical or similar loadouts. The playerbase of MWO gravitate towards these builds because they're good, and mechs in tabletop gravitated towards these builds because they're good.

I just don't understand why every mech needs to be a trash collection of a small handful of weapons. Boats dominated tabletop. Gauss rifles and PPCs dominated tabletop. Mechs that could engage effectively at all ranges OR that could devastate enemy mechs with a few well placed shot were always preferable to mechs that were a hodge podge of weapons with poor bracketing and no real role. This is the game we are playing. If you don't like it, maybe you're playing the wrong game.

[UnsafePilot]

Redesigning the hardpoint system is the wrong way to go about asking for a PPC/Gauss nerf imo. Ghost heat, quirks and/or just limiting how many gauss/ppc can be fired at the same time would accomplish the same ends without having to gut build variety out of the game.

[Ultimax]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 October 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

Once people started actually TRYING to use the Gauss Rifle after the charge was added, they realized the charge up really wasn't an issue and are now back to brawling with them at will.

So that's kind of dumb.

I didn't say I agree with the response, just that is PGI's stance on it.

I also don't see an issue with it being used for brawling.

It has DPS on par with a single AC 5 vs. the roughly 60% stronger DPS from something like an AC 20 - which also has a larger single shot hit (approx 33% stronger).

Josef Nader, on 09 October 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

I just don't understand why every mech needs to be a trash collection of a small handful of weapons. Boats dominated tabletop. Gauss rifles and PPCs dominated tabletop. Mechs that could engage effectively at all ranges OR that could devastate enemy mechs with a few well placed shot were always preferable to mechs that were a hodge podge of weapons with poor bracketing and no real role. This is the game we are playing. If you don't like it, maybe you're playing the wrong game.

Today, you are my shining star.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 09 October 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[Pendraco]

I kinda like things the way they are. It's not perfect and I am sure there could be some improvements....But complicating things with Tube sizes....No thanks. Far simpler to just make IS daka fire like clan daka if that's the main issue and be done with it.

...just my 2 C-bills

[Why Run]

Josef Nader, on 09 October 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

So swap two of those ERPPCs for the Gauss-packing omnipod that comes on the -B variant. 35 PPFLD damage with 5 damage to the two adjacent components on a mech you couldn't -force- to overheat if you tried, and that's just with the base heatsinks. We're not even factoring in backup weapons or bonus heatsinks.

I'm gonna keep saying it till I turn blue; you guys are decrying a small handful of mechs while completely ignoring other mechs that can run identical loadouts that would NOT be solved by sized hardpoints because they're stock builds run identical or similar loadouts. The playerbase of MWO gravitate towards these builds because they're good, and mechs in tabletop gravitated towards these builds because they're good.

I just don't understand why every mech needs to be a trash collection of a small handful of weapons. Boats dominated tabletop. Gauss rifles and PPCs dominated tabletop. Mechs that could engage effectively at all ranges OR that could devastate enemy mechs with a few well placed shot were always preferable to mechs that were a hodge podge of weapons with poor bracketing and no real role. This is the game we are playing. If you don't like it, maybe you're playing the wrong game.

What game are you playing? We're not playing any one game, we're playing a rotating cycling of bandaid fixes that hammer perfectly fun builds and solve nothing. Next we'll get the inability to fire ppc and gauss at the same time? Another layer of BS and complexity. You'll still be able to use them, but they won't be as powerful. 35ppfld on an 85 ton mech is not as scary as on a 65t mech, which is why you masakari alternative also doesn't matter. It's heavy and ammo dependent on a heavily restricted mech chassis. The 65t is the problem, not the 85t, which becomes one of a variety of viable options, but still limited by a less mobile weapon platform (assault).

Edited by Why Run, 09 October 2014 - 12:25 PM.

[ShadowbaneX]

Xarian, on 09 October 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

However, the SHD is a good example - it makes the HBK completely obsolete. It does the same job, except it has more hardpoints, more available space, and jump jets. Even if you restricted the SHD to near-stock values, it'd still be a great mech - you'd just be stuck with an AC/5 instead of being a HBK with jets.

I'm in favour of a system in some ways, but you just exactly hit where I don't want this system. I love me my Shadow Hawks, but I once you add in Endo & an XL engine you've got a lot of tonnage and not much to do with. Sure you could drop in a 350 Engine, but, most 55 tonners already have a speed upgrade, they need more weapons. Personally, my SHD-2H runs with an AC/10, an ER LL and a pair of SRM4s.

If it's restricted too far, ie AC/5s, ML/MPLs and LRM10s, it's...not going to be fun. Sure, you could always meta it with a pair of AC/5s or a bunch of AC/2s, but dear god that's boring. That said, where I am in favour is the very high end. Putting PPCs in the place of SLs or MLs? I'm good with that. I'm also in favour of keeping the AC/20s to fewer mechs, like the Hunchback. I think the idea of Blackjack, Shadow Hawks & Jagers running around with AC/20s all the time is a bit much.

[IceSerpent]

1453 R, on 09 October 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Serpent, are you really, really, REALLY advocating that Piranha should restrict 'Mechs from using their stock configurations? "Limit the Warhawk from packing quad PPCs by restricting its energy hardpoints", you say. What do you do for the Warhawk-Prime then, sell it unarmed?!

Next time try to read more than the first few words, it would really, really, REALLY help you understand what people are advocating and what they aren't.

Quote

You asked for "nasty possibilities" for alpha Gigaspike builds that Ghost Heat is currently eliminating and which sized hardpoints would not eliminate, the man came up with a half-dozen options out of thin air. And then you're telling him those options aren't valid, try again?

Half of those are not eliminated by GH, i.e. I have yet to see an AC40 boat being bothered by the heat penalty and we don't even have King Crab yet.
For the other half it's unclear whther the limitation is good or not, i.e. do we want to keep Warhawk in the "unwanted toys" pile, or do we want to make it more useful?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Josef Nader, on 09 October 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

With a reasonably well-balanced game with a very close weapon balance and a huge stable of viable mechs.

False, this game is not well-balanced. It just has a very small population and a lot of terrible players.

This game gets exposed every time they do any kind of serious tournament, and once CW rolls in and people have a reason to actually play, it will be even more evident.

In addition this game is a flat boring-ass arena game, with terrible modes and a MAJOR lack of anything that could be considered dynamic.

People like you are why this game is floundering, which is why Russ has had to wage a one man campaign to try and save things.

It's why they instituted Mode Voting and IMMEDIATELY removed it in fear of losing more people.

It's a sad state, and you perpetuate it.

[Belorion]

Eldagore, on 08 October 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...zed-hardpoints/

No restrictions on hardpoints/loadouts, possible to remove ghost heat, breaks up PPFLD trouble loadouts, adjustable on a per variant basis. Alteration effects already seen on clan AC's and lasers.

I skimmed too quickly at first. Are you basically saying that too many of one kind of weapon need to be chain fired instead of all at once?

So two AC-20's have to fire one after the other but two AC-5s, or four AC-2s can be fired all at once?

Keying the 20's could even be expressed like the way the Ultra 5 fires?

I can totally get behind that, which falls inline with me saying the only way to acceptably nerf alphas are to make them rate of fire weapons instead. This is just essentially turning the Alpha into a rate of fire damage moment instead of the weapons themselves.

Edited by Belorion, 09 October 2014 - 12:50 PM.

[Josef Nader]

Why Run, on 09 October 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

What game are you playing? We're not playing any one game, we're playing a rotating cycling of bandaid fixes that hammer perfectly fun builds and solve nothing. Next we'll get the inability to fire ppc and gauss at the same time? Another layer of BS and complexity. You'll still be able to use them, but they won't be as powerful. 35ppfld on an 85 ton mech is not as scary as on a 65t mech, which is why you masakari alternative also doesn't matter. It's heavy and ammo dependent on a heavily restricted mech chassis. The 65t is the problem, not the 85t, which becomes one of a variety of viable options, but still limited by a less mobile weapon platform (assault).

You do realize that the Warhawk moves at the same speed as the 65 tonners, with more armor, more heat efficiency, and backup weapons, right?

Also, it seems that you stopped playing this game ~6 months ago. The 2x AC20 Jäger hasn't been a serious player in the meta since before the Victor was introduced. The K2 has similarly almost completely disappeared. The PPC/Gauss combination has, likewise, disappeared in favor of PPCs/AC5s, as they have a similar rate of fire and the AC5 is better for snap shots. Twin gauss mechs have, likewise, gone the way of the dodo as far as serious meta contenders. They're still good, sure, but they're hardly what all the cool kids are running around in these days.

Right now, the top tier mechs are the 2x cERPPC/2x cGauss Dire Whales, the 6x UAC5 Dire Whales, the Timber Wolf (there's no one agreed upon meta build for this one. It's just a damn good mech), and the Stormcrow (see what I said about the Timber). Even then, the meta is in such flux that we haven't really had something like the 2x PPC, 2x UAC5 Victor crop up, a clear top choice that is effective at all ranges, fast, agile, mobile, and taking advantage of the games mechanics in the most exploitative way possible. Even then, the Victor had huge side torsos and was quite prone to exploding hilariously once you forced it into a close fight.

Welcome to the new meta! We're talking about an outdated meta that was indeed quite tough at the time, but has improved vastly in the last few months.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 October 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

False, this game is not well-balanced. It just has a very small population and a lot of terrible players.

This game gets exposed every time they do any kind of serious tournament, and once CW rolls in and people have a reason to actually play, it will be even more evident.

In addition this game is a flat boring-ass arena game, with terrible modes and a MAJOR lack of anything that could be considered dynamic.

People like you are why this game is floundering, which is why Russ has had to wage a one man campaign to try and save things.

It's why they instituted Mode Voting and IMMEDIATELY removed it in fear of losing more people.

It's a sad state, and you perpetuate it.

Terrible because they're inflexible, and make no attempt to actually branch out of whatever the perceived "meta" of the time is. We got plenty of those.


What happened with the voting system is a perfect example. "Good" players are only good within their very narrowly defined set of variables, and the minute they get forced out of that happy space they go into nuclear meltdown. Meanwhile, those of us that have actually spent our time learning the game for what it is rather than padding our stats and screaming that nothing is viable barely notice.

As far as it being a repetitive arena game, you got me there. That's a big reason why I've spent so much time mastering the 100+ mechs in my stable. Not much to do in this game beyond experiment with the various mechs and try to make them work.

Edited by Josef Nader, 09 October 2014 - 12:52 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Josef Nader, on 09 October 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Wait, so now you're talking about taking stock builds out of the game because they break your hardpoint size fantasy?

I am asking you what you want to do about them. GH generally prevents builds like quad PPC Warhawk from being viable (although it won't do anything to prevent King Crab from packing twin AC20s). So, one option is continue preventing those builds from existing, and the other is to allow them. What would be your preference?

Quote

I recognize the place we've reached. We're done here. This isn't MW4. It should never be MW4. MW4's mechlab was awful. MW4 was a horribly unbalanced mess of laser boating and poptarts, with even fewer viable mechs than MWO. If you want to play MW4, it still exists, and there are still servers you can join. I'm quite happy with a very different experience, thank you.

That actually made me chuckle. Let me guess, you only played vanilla version of MW4? Boating lasers has been completely non-viable for a very long time, same goes for using poptarts on a brawling map.

[IceSerpent]

Josef Nader, on 09 October 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

You do realize that the Warhawk moves at the same speed as the 65 tonners, with more armor, more heat efficiency, and backup weapons, right?

Warhawk takes an assault slot on the team, and as you've said:

Quote

Right now, the top tier mechs are the 2x cERPPC/2x cGauss Dire Whales, the 6x UAC5 Dire Whales, the Timber Wolf (there's no one agreed upon meta build for this one. It's just a damn good mech), and the Stormcrow (see what I said about the Timber).

Would you take a Warhawk over a Dire Wolf into a competitive match?

[Josef Nader]

IceSerpent, on 09 October 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

Would you take a Warhawk over a Dire Wolf into a competitive match?

Not in the current meta, but if the Dire Wolf could no longer sport 2x ERPPCs and 2x Gauss rifles, it'd be the first thing I started experimenting with.

IceSerpent, on 09 October 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

I am asking you what you want to do about them. GH generally prevents builds like quad PPC Warhawk from being viable (although it won't do anything to prevent King Crab from packing twin AC20s). So, one option is continue preventing those builds from existing, and the other is to allow them. What would be your preference?

My preference is what we have right now; a system that allows these stock builds to happily exist, but merely forces the user to spread their damage out (or have fairly good aim) over the course of several shots rather than pumping it into a single trigger pull. I'm quite happy with the current state of things, honestly, hence this thread.

[IceSerpent]

Josef Nader, on 09 October 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

My preference is what we have right now; a system that allows these stock builds to happily exist, but merely forces the user to spread their damage out (or have fairly good aim) over the course of several shots rather than pumping it into a single trigger pull. I'm quite happy with the current state of things, honestly, hence this thread.

Except they don't "happily exist" - people simply opt to use mechs/builds that allow for that single trigger pull instead.

[Gerhardt Jorgensson]

Josef Nader, on 09 October 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

My preference is what we have right now; a system that allows these stock builds to happily exist, but merely forces the user to spread their damage out (or have fairly good aim) over the course of several shots rather than pumping it into a single trigger pull. I'm quite happy with the current state of things, honestly, hence this thread.

Where do you see stock 'Mechs existing in this game? The heat system alone is too punishing for stock 'Mechs to be run against anything other than other stock 'Mechs -- hard point restrictions or not.