174 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

And seriously if you think CW is going to be something like a strategic wargame where you get to change the history of the inner sphere with your group of friends....you might as well hit the door now.

Look to Heroes and Generals strategic side, or Battleground Europes.

Itll be that, but considerably watered down. Youll fight battles over blinking lights on the map, and the totality of those battles results will change that blinking light to your color. Itll only be active a few hours a days, and for the forseeable future, the people deciding which planets are blinking and being fought over, will be PGI.

There will be some ability, eventually, to decide where youre attacking, and at that point, PGI may have some tools for large groups to play a sort of strategic game, but that very quickly is going to require resets when one group has its **** together with a bunch of founders in meta.

Which is fine.

[KraftySOT]

Its just easier from PGIs perspective, to have the clans race for Terra, and the IS try and stop them for a few months, declare a winner, hand out some cockpit items, and reset it. They can take what theyve learned and make the next season better.

It allows them alot of room for unintended consequences (like Marik taking over the Inner Sphere, or the Clans losing horribly)

How do you do a 1:1 timeline if the clans get booted out of the Inner Sphere?

All those people who spent all that money, who now cant drop in CW at all? Thats clearly not how it can work.

[Roadbeer]

Cimarb, on 09 October 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

As you all probably already know, I completely agree with Cycloner. Seasons are about as bad of a way to handle this as possible.

Luckily, Paul and Russ already seem to be leaning towards changing this, and I am hopeful this is just one of those things that they threw out there on the spur and now that some thought is going into it, they will change their minds.

For me, I do not understand why you would need any sort of reset at all. Just adjust rewards occasionally to sway the "carrot" one way or the other. One unit getting too strong? Double cbills for all successful attacks on their worlds for the next seven days! Use the Bounty system!

Come on PGI, put a little more thought into this and I am sure you can come up with something spectacular! You have been hitting home runs the last month or two, so we just need another one here. I have faith!

MPBT:3025 handled this very well. When a House was loosing, the merc bonus increased.
IIRC, there was a daily adjustment where, say Marik lost some ground, then the "Sign up bonus" was greater than average (this would increase the more ground was lost), and you could switch factions weekly.
I can only remember a couple instances when a faction was pushed down to their "Capital" and that only lasted a day or two before the 'mercs' switched to them for the Cbills and pushed back.

[Russ Bullock]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 09 October 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

agreed 100% Seasons are a stupid idea, and show they have ZERO plans of making this anything other than a crappy arena E-sport shooter

First and foremost another extreme statement.

Bottom line is:

At this point we do not know how many people will participate in the CW feature, maybe a lot, maybe 20% of our players. Will the MWO playerbase grow when CW is present?

Many players also want to be able to switch factions and want to be able to play all of their mechs both Clan and IS in CW - this can only be accomplished with a faction change. Should they be allowed to without a seasonal reset? How often.

What if a team locks down the Inner Sphere.

Please don't make extreme statements - the notion of "Seasons" is obviously just an Idea on how we might be able to solve the questions we are being presented with. Other solutions might present themselves.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I'm slightly in favor of season. I think a persistent IS map would be cool but I see some problems with it right now. After reading the OP though I do think all seasons should end with the battle for Terra if the Clans reach it, the great refusal if the Clans are pushed out of the IS, and maybe Tukayyid if neither is really winning at the end of the season.

Thats just from my perspective on the Clan side, I guess if one of the houses takes over everything there could be some event for them taking control of the IS.

Edited by Rouken, 09 October 2014 - 08:59 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Of course where is BT3025 now?

I thought it was great but it also ended up just being a side switching tug of war. You never really had any attachment and your hand was clearly being held by the system.

Since I dont have faith in PGIs hand holding ability, id rather have a system with resets, where your hand isnt held at all. Someone can actually lose a capital.

[Sadist Cain]

Roadbeer, on 09 October 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

MPBT:3025 handled this very well. When a House was loosing, the merc bonus increased.
IIRC, there was a daily adjustment where, say Marik lost some ground, then the "Sign up bonus" was greater than average (this would increase the more ground was lost), and you could switch factions weekly.
I can only remember a couple instances when a faction was pushed down to their "Capital" and that only lasted a day or two before the 'mercs' switched to them for the Cbills and pushed back.

Indeed, there are many more dynamic ways to alter the flow of gameplay in a persistent timeline. Hard resets are the most basic.
After several years of mech deathmatch I think everyone is looking to CW to more than just a basic feature...

There's bonuses, reinforcement packs, discounts, all sorts can be done.

Edited by Sadist Cain, 09 October 2014 - 08:59 AM.

[KraftySOT]

The #1 advantage though for seasons, is the ability to fix things.

If you create a bad mechanic, and its abused to a very unsettling set of unintended consequences (Marik taking over the map) youre forced to do a reset anyways.

You might as well just work the reset into your plan. That way when something goes awry "Itll be fixed next season".

[Russ Bullock]

There are some very good ideas in this thread and we will be reviewing them.

[KraftySOT]

And I know I keep harping on this, but 3025 also had no clans, and is in the middle of a succession war that you can have play out any way you want. It doesnt matter how the map moves, and it honestly never left the era.

In this timeline...there are really big pivotal things that people want to be involved in, if you only do them once. Thats a huge loss of an opportunity to keep milking those "historical" events.

If you only ever have one clan invasion....thats not nearly as good as having it every year.

[Sadist Cain]

Russ Bullock, on 09 October 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

First and foremost another extreme statement.

Bottom line is:

At this point we do not know how many people will participate in the CW feature, maybe a lot, maybe 20% of our players. Will the MWO playerbase grow when CW is present?

Many players also want to be able to switch factions and want to be able to play all of their mechs both Clan and IS in CW - this can only be accomplished with a faction change. Should they be allowed to without a seasonal reset? How often.

What if a team locks down the Inner Sphere.

Please don't make extreme statements - the notion of "Seasons" is obviously just an Idea on how we might be able to solve the questions we are being presented with. Other solutions might present themselves.

I believe the faction switching should be available at all times (after all people turn all the time) but the way it's encouraged or discouraged should depend on the state of the inner sphere at the time. maybe like Roadbeer said it should be more difficult and less beneficial to join the faction/can that is rolling over everyone, after all attrition is a thing and resources get spread thin.

The same kind of principles apply to if a team locks down the inner sphere.

Personally I think this is a better way forward, PGi has been a lot more hands on and active in recent weeks and it kind of shows that you're quite capable of provided live adjustments based on community opinion.

I wouldn't worry so much about the extreme opinions, think big and be brave. We're all behind you for that and there's no one getting in the way.
I think if CW tries to be something bigger and more spectacular than a system which involves seasonal resets then you'll see a hell of a lot of old and new players come to the fore.
People are already asking for Transverse to be turned into aerospace so theres a lot of teeth waiting to sink into a meaty CW feature.

Go Big

[Hoax415]

It makes 100% sound sense to declare what will basically amount to an alpha test of CW is going to be a 3-month run season.

We're going to encounter a TON of problems PGI hasn't thought of when you unleash a bunch of players with more reason to game the system than they have ever had before onto something that they are crunching to finish this year.

All the bugs, or balance issues, or population imbalance troubles or whatever it is that makes "Season 1" kind of a mess aren't something to get as upset about if you realize that this is pretty much the test run season.

It also gives PGI much needed data on things they can't figure out without us playing:
-how many / how big should the time windows be?
-where should the time windows be placed for best coverage?
-how bad will population imbalance be. This will determine how extreme their "comeback mechanics" "anti-zerg systems" and other stuff need to be. If the largest faction is 25% of the population they need to worry a lot more compared to if the largest faction is 15% of the population.
-how many tokens should it take to flip a planet? where is the sweet spot there?
-how many time windows should planets be open for battle? Should it be a full 24 hours? More? Less? Depends on the planet?
-is 240 the right number for tonnage or is it too high?

and so on and so on.

Season 1 is also hopefully going to give them 3 months to test and execute a better more robust LNW, Merc and Faction systems so that each play option has some unique flavor to it.

Crying about seasons is idiotic. Would you prefer that we have a 2 month CW run on the test server instead? Because CW is going to need testing and there will be problems and if there was no season people would be rightfully a lot more upset about them.

[KraftySOT]

Exactly^

[Russ Bullock]

Yes it is very likely that at the least we will need an initial short "Beta" season. Upon launch we don't know what we don't know as they say.

[KraftySOT]

I think the idea of a persistent dynamic timeline is AWESOME. Dont get me wrong there. I love those ideas, those are great ideas.

I just dont think thats the best approach. It would be really killer if it just worked right out of the door and was as amazing as you all hoped.

The reality is that there will be problems, and a persistent timeline is much harder to get right, than seasons that are more loosely based on an era.

BT3025 had the right idea in many ways, and that kind of system might work here, but its also never going to leave the era it starts in. Which is totally fine.

Get what we got now going well...then visit the idea of something more persistent in the future. The more "practice runs" we get, the better. We're all here for the long haul. Lets get it right.

Edited by KraftySOT, 09 October 2014 - 09:15 AM.

[Hardin4188]

The way I see it is that the seasons will allow for cw to follow the general battletech timeline. Assuming we are still going with the 1:1 timeline. The game just wouldn't work anymore if Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon split the inner sphere in half for months and months. Seasonal restarts allows the map to change with each update and follow the canon borders. Some factions will still suffer more then others with the canon events, but within the season they can still gain territory back.

This is just an idea, but I think it fit closely with the original intentions, that we could influence the invasion but major canon battles and losses would still occur.

[Sadist Cain]

KraftySOT, on 09 October 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

I think the idea of a persistent dynamic timeline is AWESOME. Dont get me wrong there. I love those ideas, those are great ideas.

I just dont think thats the best approach. It would be really killer if it just worked right out of the door and was as amazing as you all hoped.

The reality is that there will be problems, and a persistent timeline is much harder to get right, than seasons that are more loosely based on an era.

BT3025 had the right idea in many ways, and that kind of system might work here, but its also never going to leave the era it starts in.

I think that the best of both worlds is 6 months of test seasons with the ultimate goal being to hit a persistent universe for the full launch.

I don't think anyone would deny the need for testing and refinement for such a large system... to decry such a need is the sign of a mongoloid.

I think we need to nail CW in a "mini-verse" so that we can all learn, but ultimately, it needs to be bigger than seasonal resets because as has been said, people wont keep coming back season after season.

[Almond Brown]

Given that we do not lose our Mechs when they die, a Seasonal reset is/is not all bad.

Now if you want to see what really happens in this "new" sphere we might build, let CW allow dead Mechs to stay dead and when/if the Clanners, a smaller Population than the I.S. get totally wiped out, then the "Game is OVER" and the I.S. wins, right?

Or visa versa. Either way MWO is done, end game reached and no restart. I hope the Battle last a while. LOL!

There is no "Reality" to be had unless "Dead Mechs" stay dead during the fight against the "Clans" so a "seasonal restart" makes doesn't change much really.

[KraftySOT]

Sadist Cain, on 09 October 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

I think that the best of both worlds is 6 months of test seasons with the ultimate goal being to hit a persistent universe for the full launch.

I don't think anyone would deny the need for testing and refinement for such a large system... to decry such a need is the sign of a mongoloid.

I think we need to nail CW in a "mini-verse" so that we can all learn, but ultimately, it needs to be bigger than seasonal resets because as has been said, people wont keep coming back season after season.

Definitely. You WILL hit a wall eventually where everyone has "been there done that". That might very well be the eventual goal, and if they CAN get there and do something persistent, it will keep the game alive till 2020 and possibly even be worth renewing the license.

Persistent is great dont get me wrong. Eve....Star Citizen...theyre glowing giant neon signs attesting to the awesomeness of persistence.

We just gotta get there first.

Almond Brown, on 09 October 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

Given that we do not lose our Mechs when they die, a Seasonal reset is/is not all bad.

Now if you want to see what really happens in this "new" sphere we might build, let CW allow dead Mechs to stay dead and when/if the Clanners, a smaller Population than the I.S. get totally wiped out, then the "Game is OVER" and the I.S. wins, right?

Or visa versa. Either way MWO is done, end game reached and no restart. I hope the Battle last a while. LOL!

There is no "Reality" to be had unless "Dead Mechs" stay dead during the fight against the "Clans" so a "seasonal restart" makes doesn't change much really.

I would also love to see something hardcore. Capitals being lost isnt something that ever happened in BT3025. There were no winners and no losers. As General Patton said "A war without risk? Nothing lost, nothing gained? No heroes no heroics? By god im glad ill be dead before I see it"

Seasons and resets allow you to go balls to the wall with that kind of stuff. And its also cool for the bragging rights and attachment to your team. Being the Season 3 Winners and getting some sort of fluff for it...is pretty darned cool too.

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 09 October 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

Given that we do not lose our Mechs when they die, a Seasonal reset is/is not all bad.

Now if you want to see what really happens in this "new" sphere we might build, let CW allow dead Mechs to stay dead and when/if the Clanners, a smaller Population than the I.S. get totally wiped out, then the "Game is OVER" and the I.S. wins, right?

Or visa versa. Either way MWO is done, end game reached and no restart. I hope the Battle last a while. LOL!

There is no "Reality" to be had unless "Dead Mechs" stay dead during the fight against the "Clans" so a "seasonal restart" makes doesn't change much really.

Ah, but Author Fiat has a place in The Canon. How many Mechs did Main Characters lose only to have a replacement ready?