141 replies to this topic

[H I A S]

Thrudvangar, on 11 October 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

hahah nice one! should mount a std engine and a medium laser to do a bit dmg?....

Griffin 3M has an 50+ Alpha and Run 89kp/h with an STD.
Try it again.

Edited by HiasRGB, 11 October 2014 - 02:16 PM.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

I would look at RoF, before damage and armor.
And better yet look at PPFLD.

[Variant1]

Im sorry but no. The current double armor was a good and smart decision by pgi. Buffing all weapons dmg to compensate for double armor would ruin the whole point of having the armor buff in the first place.

[Mcgral18]

Variant1, on 11 October 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

Im sorry but no. The current double armor was a good and smart decision by pgi. Buffing all weapons dmg to compensate for double armor would ruin the whole point of having the armor buff in the first place.

Buffing all weapons was why we needed double armour in the first place. Did you even read the OP?

[Lordred]

People, on average, do not read the OP, even if you try to keep it simple.

[Sadist Cain]

Lordred, on 11 October 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

People, on average, do not read the OP, even if you try to keep it simple.

You should try reading my op no simplicity there!

The ultimate problem in trying to balance TTK is the Zerg combined with pinpoint damage.
In reality you could say "zerging" is tempered by the desire to not shoot your mate in the back because he won't just shrug it off, there's logistics to consider and basically a whole load of small things that equate to make it inviable.
However it is still a tactic (see: Blitzkreig) and should be present as such however in game land, zerging is rife... and shall we say OP? (Folk should not make the rookie mistake of confusing a zerg with teamwork)

The problem with MWO and a LOT of games these days is the lack of mechanics to offset zerging. You either Zerg back, put on a fantastic display of teamwork which the current game mechanics does not support.

Once zerging happens all of your balance adjustments are magnified exponentially & they're out the window. With such a method being the most common used to win games in MWO on assault and skirmish it's no surprise how these guys obviously don't make good bedfellows with the conquest crowd

I hate to be that guy but ironically Tabletop had a solution already i believe, one mech per hex? (never played TT, please correct where needed)

Personally I would have a mechanic to expand upon that principle whereupon any group of 5 mechs or above are clustered together within a certain range and are over a certain percentage of heat they all suffer a penalty to their heat dissappation.

You can still move together, still shoot together up to a point and you can still go hell for leather with your LANCE which is how it should be.
However a blob of twelve mechs firing off every weapon under the sun in the space of a shoebox should feel the effects of all that heat.
Think of the tunnels... how much of a pressure cooker is that?
Mayhaps lessen the effect on zero atmosphere environments? let the zerg live on in its own right, just in a more controlled state to improve game quality for everyone.

Hope you appreciate the feedback dude, I'd love to see yours also.

Edited by Sadist Cain, 11 October 2014 - 06:02 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

The rate whcih ive seen mechs dropped, if this is double the TTK, what was standard TTK? Less then a second just like in human based shooters?

I know just going straight off TT numbers a Light mech is cored in 2 Gauss Rifle shots....or there about....30 dmg to the CT? ouch...even a fully armored 100t mech only has like 52 CT armor and like 20 or so internal, so like 2 Guass and a few ML, paired up with some light LRM fire cores that....

[YueFei]

I'm pretty happy with the TTK as it is now.

I usually get to fire at least half a dozen salvos in my HBK before dying. Sometimes if I really screw up I might die or be stripped after just 3 or 4 shots.

I don't think a HBK would live alot longer than that on average in TT anyways.

[Thrudvangar]

HiasRGB, on 11 October 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Griffin 3M has an 50+ Alpha and Run 89kp/h with an STD.
Try it again.

yeah but not everybody likes SRMs only...

[Karl Marlow]

Zoid, on 11 October 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

We don't need more TTK, we need better camping deterrents so that you're not likely to have 8 'mechs all focusing you down at once. In other words, it's not the Dire Wolf's firepower that's the issue, it's the fact that both teams will have 3 of them camping out and waiting for a target to show up, then all shooting at once.

We have camping deterrents. They are called Artillery and Air Strikes. Doesn't work very well when the enemy is spread out properly but I'm not exactly sure what kind of deterrent you are after.

[Lily from animove]

Ultimatum X, on 10 October 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

This is possible, but usually those circumstances were determined by team positioning, target vs. target positioning, etc.

Yes, a DWF can core a mech who is standing out in the open in a few volleys of gigaspike pain.


On the other hand, I've had targets I thought for sure I could remove quickly live much longer because they kept moving, shielded a wounded side or found cover, or another mech ran interference, or my team abandoned me and left my flank exposed etc.

Part of TTK is not just absorbing raw damage, part of it is the circumstances of the match - including both personal play and team work.

a few volles? 100+ alpha wolves need one shot to core most emchs or destroy them, which is mostlikely a bit mroe than a single second he needs to have a line of fire to the target.

LordKnightFandragon, on 11 October 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

The rate whcih ive seen mechs dropped, if this is double the TTK, what was standard TTK? Less then a second just like in human based shooters?

I know just going straight off TT numbers a Light mech is cored in 2 Gauss Rifle shots....or there about....30 dmg to the CT? ouch...even a fully armored 100t mech only has like 52 CT armor and like 20 or so internal, so like 2 Guass and a few ML, paired up with some light LRM fire cores that....

that may be true, but what are the chances for a pilot in TT to actually hit that location? we humans are like cheated dices (at leats the good pilots), thats why you comparison to TT does not work, the dices increase real tt ttk a lot.

Edited by Lily from animove, 12 October 2014 - 04:19 AM.

[Xanquil]

LordKnightFandragon, on 11 October 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

The rate whcih ive seen mechs dropped, if this is double the TTK, what was standard TTK? Less then a second just like in human based shooters?

I know just going straight off TT numbers a Light mech is cored in 2 Gauss Rifle shots....or there about....30 dmg to the CT? ouch...even a fully armored 100t mech only has like 52 CT armor and like 20 or so internal, so like 2 Guass and a few ML, paired up with some light LRM fire cores that....

YueFei, on 11 October 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

I'm pretty happy with the TTK as it is now.

I usually get to fire at least half a dozen salvos in my HBK before dying. Sometimes if I really screw up I might die or be stripped after just 3 or 4 shots.

I don't think a HBK would live alot longer than that on average in TT anyways.

If we consider TT TTK, yes every mech in MWO is made of paper. The average TTK in TT is roughly 30-40 seconds, barring any lucky shots. That is even being focus fired by a lance. And it is highly unlikely you'll take down an assault in that amount of time.
Mostly because it is next to impossible to hit the exact same location with all of your weapons, and you are also not likely to hit with all of your weapons in the first place.


Taking the systems used in TT and applying them to a FPS would naturally decrease TTK (do to players being more accurate.) But out and out dropping some of the key systems has had an ever growing effect on TTK. This has reduced the TTK by 70-90% (3-12sec) which is frankly way too fast.
This time is getting shorter do to the noticeable fact that the even more weapons can be fired at once, all of which will hit the exact same location when they hit. MWOs alpha strikes are by and large the number one game breaking "feature".

[KraftySOT]

LordKnightFandragon, on 11 October 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

The rate whcih ive seen mechs dropped, if this is double the TTK, what was standard TTK? Less then a second just like in human based shooters?

I know just going straight off TT numbers a Light mech is cored in 2 Gauss Rifle shots....or there about....30 dmg to the CT? ouch...even a fully armored 100t mech only has like 52 CT armor and like 20 or so internal, so like 2 Guass and a few ML, paired up with some light LRM fire cores that....

Yeah but youll never actually hit a good light with a gauss rifle in the TT. Unless you have a 1/1 or 0/0 pilot shooting at the light.

Which of course means our mechs are way to accurate. Or the lights are too big/slow.

+5 from movement +2 from minimum range +4 from standard pilot.

11 or 12 to hit.

So if the attacker ran...its unhittable. If he walked he can hit it on a 12. If he stood still (thus getting reamed by the lights 6 to-hit) he has a ~7% chance of hitting the light with a gauss.

If he's a SUPER AWESOME CYBER WARRIOR...he has about a ~17% chance of hitting the light, at all, with a gauss rifle.

Edited by KraftySOT, 12 October 2014 - 08:52 AM.

[YueFei]

Xanquil, on 12 October 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

If we consider TT TTK, yes every mech in MWO is made of paper. The average TTK in TT is roughly 30-40 seconds, barring any lucky shots. That is even being focus fired by a lance. And it is highly unlikely you'll take down an assault in that amount of time.
Mostly because it is next to impossible to hit the exact same location with all of your weapons, and you are also not likely to hit with all of your weapons in the first place.


Taking the systems used in TT and applying them to a FPS would naturally decrease TTK (do to players being more accurate.) But out and out dropping some of the key systems has had an ever growing effect on TTK. This has reduced the TTK by 70-90% (3-12sec) which is frankly way too fast.
This time is getting shorter do to the noticeable fact that the even more weapons can be fired at once, all of which will hit the exact same location when they hit. MWOs alpha strikes are by and large the number one game breaking "feature".

I feel that the "randomization" of hit locations in MWO should be represented by player actions (running, twisting, turning, jumping.... and if they ever add it, crouching, etc). By being able to interpose other body parts in between the enemy and your vitals, you spread the damage out. It provides, as someone else said, the possibility of counter-play. Even for fans of the lore and TT, isn't it awesome to imagine that the reason weapons fire strikes random body parts is not because Mechwarriors are derps who can't aim, but because they are elite pilots who are able to dance their mechs around with such agility that it becomes difficult to reliably strike the same component again and again?

That's why hitboxes are so important. A mech with crappy hitboxes has a hard time spreading that damage, and ends up eating concentrated fire all to a single vital body part, losing it quickly.

The HBK hardly has ideal hitboxes. The toothpick thin upper arms don't offer much to protect the side torsos. But even then, I find even in some of my worse games, I have the chance to shoot 3 or 4 times before dying. If I do my job properly I should lose side torsos before getting killed.

Just how many shots do you expect a medium mech to be able to fire off when the pilot has screwed up and doomed himself?

[Krellshand]

Lily from animove, on 12 October 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

a few volles? 100+ alpha wolves need one shot to core most emchs or destroy them, which is mostlikely a bit mroe than a single second he needs to have a line of fire to the target.



that may be true, but what are the chances for a pilot in TT to actually hit that location? we humans are like cheated dices (at leats the good pilots), thats why you comparison to TT does not work, the dices increase real tt ttk a lot.

100+ alphas without overheating and pinpoint? Tell me more, I am interested. My double Gauss 1 Erll 6 ML surely cant do that. And if you stand still for 1,6 seconds without even twitching... well.
I mean, do you really think facing a 100 ton mech, who charges up his gauss AND hits you with those lasers while you just stand there is a good idea? And after that Alpha, I am 62% heat.... thats a LOT! Two Alphas in a row are not possible with that setup.
I can fire that 6 ML exactly 3 times in a row without overheating.

So yes, if I can 2 volley an atlas who is disconnected he is cored. If he moves, twitches or even SHIELDS, I am in for the long run, heatmanagement inclusive... The double gauss alone needs 3 (!) volleys to core a centurion.
And thats all below 400 meter range.
Besides, I lose an arm and 50% of my firepower is gone.


And has it ever occured to you, that the TT simulated the SKILL of the plot of spreading damage over his mech by that 2d6 roll? If you let a 100 ton mech unload on your med in TT, its as good as dead too.

[Satan n stuff]

Lordred, on 11 October 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

People, on average, do not read the OP, even if you try to keep it simple.

How the hell do you get an average of that? That's not how averages work.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 12 October 2014 - 09:39 AM.

[Xanquil]

Sorry but even the best "skilled" pilots can't spread the damage of an alpha that is always going to hit the same location, because all those weapons are going to hit the same location no matter what you do. There is the problem plain and simple, alpha strikes reduce/ remove skill. The more weapons that you can lump together and fire at once the less skill it takes to take out your enemy, and the less that target can do about it. That is a simple and obvious fact. (which has nothing to do with TT)

As for the random hit locations in TT, that had little to do with pilot ability. It had more to do with simulating the plethora of Issues that can come up while in combat that the pilot has no control over. Ballistic deviation, servo lag, sudden dip, dirty lenses, sub quality munitions, to name a few. Also the battle computer was designed to hit the target,(like modern one is) not pick a pixel and put all damage in that spot.

[YueFei]

Xanquil, on 12 October 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

Sorry but even the best "skilled" pilots can't spread the damage of an alpha that is always going to hit the same location, because all those weapons are going to hit the same location no matter what you do. There is the problem plain and simple, alpha strikes reduce/ remove skill. The more weapons that you can lump together and fire at once the less skill it takes to take out your enemy, and the less that target can do about it. That is a simple and obvious fact. (which has nothing to do with TT)

As for the random hit locations in TT, that had little to do with pilot ability. It had more to do with simulating the plethora of Issues that can come up while in combat that the pilot has no control over. Ballistic deviation, servo lag, sudden dip, dirty lenses, sub quality munitions, to name a few. Also the battle computer was designed to hit the target,(like modern one is) not pick a pixel and put all damage in that spot.

You take different alphas into different locations, that's how you spread the damage in this game.

Moving laterally against pin-point projectile weapons mounted in different locations breaks up some of the convergence, also causing an alpha strike to hit different locations.

Against hitscan weapons, they are DoT, so you can actually move during the shot to spread the damage.

The top players in this game, even when fighting against one another, are quite often able to spread the damage. Rarely does a mech piloted by a top player die with the CT gone and everything else intact.

Remember this: NBA players sometimes miss *free throws*. Static, uncontested shots against an unmoving, unchanging target, that they often practice shooting all the time.

Now try landing shots into the same location over and over again on a moving, dynamic target, under pressure of time (because the opportunity presents itself and vanishes again quickly), that's also shooting back at you, while you're trying to adjust your own movements and keep track of heat, of your positioning relative to your team's, where you're injured so you can protect it, etc.

If the balance between offense/defense in this game were as skewed as you believe, the top players fighting each other would most often end their fights with CTs cored out and everything else clean.

That's not the case.

This is a case of improving one's defensive skills to stay alive longer.

Increasing the number of shots it takes to kill you by even 30% often leads to living longer than just 30% longer. Mechs start to overheat, slackening their rate of fire, which increases TTK even further.

If I miraculously intercept even 20 damage on my HBK's arm instead of the side torso, that could be the difference between losing the side torso now, and losing it 30 seconds later, after I've already squeezed out another 4 or 5 shots from that side torso.

Who wouldn't want to be able to add 20+ armor to their side torso? Well you can. You just have to pick a mech with favorable hitboxes and stick your arm in the way of shots. Will you always succeed? No. Just like you're not always going to parry someone's attacks, or block every single punch and kick someone throws at you. But you just need to succeed occasionally, and your TTK will go up dramatically.

[H I A S]

Thrudvangar, on 12 October 2014 - 12:26 AM, said:

yeah but not everybody likes SRMs only...

SHD-2D2

SHD-2D2

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lily from animove, on 12 October 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

a few volles? 100+ alpha wolves need one shot to core most emchs or destroy them, which is mostlikely a bit mroe than a single second he needs to have a line of fire to the target.



that may be true, but what are the chances for a pilot in TT to actually hit that location? we humans are like cheated dices (at leats the good pilots), thats why you comparison to TT does not work, the dices increase real tt ttk a lot.

I get TT had random hit locations, but im saying, if MWO had TT Armor values and this PPFLD mechanics, the TTK musta been insanely fast......I can only imagine how fast mechs must have died in beta with single armor and not doubled...

It would almost be cool if this game used a Cof, atleast one as big as the center reticule. That would give us some deviation, and maybe further out it would bloom some more. of course, i think lasers would need to be sped up in damage or else they would bloom so much their damage would be nill.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 12 October 2014 - 11:45 AM.