267 replies to this topic

[sabujo]

Are TAG/Narc bonuses working? They don't appear in the match summary at the end.

Edited by sabujo, 10 October 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[Xyroc]

Deathlike, on 10 October 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

If this were St. Patrick's Day weekend, I'd see the value.

I'm not sure how Christopher Columbus feels.

He doesnt deserve his own day anyways.

Edited by Beliall, 10 October 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[Eglar]

Kali Rinpoche, on 10 October 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

The whole "kill" thing is a red herring. Very rarely does 1 single mech burn down another in 1 to 1 combat. Most kills come b/c someone else or a group of others have pounded that mech to paper. A lucky lrm 5 hit takes out the mech to get the "Kill." The rewards are set up to promote team work, and if you happen to get the kill, you get a 1 point bonus.

Now if this was a Solaris style group tourney, then kills should be worth more, but it isn't.

While I understand part of your sentiment, I'm surprised noone ever complains about how easy it is to get assists. In the tournament weekend I was just running around with a ERLas and strafing everyone and usually ended up with Fullassist - Kills games. While kills certainly can be made with a lucky shot, you can immensely improve your own odds of getting a kill by being at the right place at the right time and shooting the right component.

At this point I simply don't understand why assists weight more than kills. All I did trying not to get kills and was through the challenge after 9 games.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

Big Tin Man, on 10 October 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

I'd be ok with it if kills and assists are equal in value (though I still think that isn't right). The fact that a locust with an er large that splashes everyone gets more points than the people actually doing the work killing is fundamentally wrong.

Did the pilot who got the kill shot do anything more or less than the pilot who took the first shot?

Its to stop the rage with kill stealing. Seems you all have to rage about something, never satisfied.

[Alienized]

i love this challenge

[C E Dwyer]

good set of challenges..
well done

[William Slayer]

Four Leaf Clover... Now my scores will improve for sure! Like the Challenge, will be firing up later on.

[KHETTI]

Let the Sync-dropping weekend begin, sigh.

[Bilbo]

Eglar, on 10 October 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

While I understand part of your sentiment, I'm surprised noone ever complains about how easy it is to get assists. In the tournament weekend I was just running around with a ERLas and strafing everyone and usually ended up with Fullassist - Kills games. While kills certainly can be made with a lucky shot, you can immensely improve your own odds of getting a kill by being at the right place at the right time and shooting the right component.

At this point I simply don't understand why assists weight more than kills. All I did trying not to get kills and was through the challenge after 9 games.

While it is easy to satisfy the requirement to receive the assist. The mechs you shot do actually have to die. Does no good to touch every mech on the enemy team if the rest of your team gets rolled like a carpet.

[Gremlich Johns]

Beliall, on 10 October 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

He doesn't deserve his own day anyways.

I agree, considering my nordic ancestors got here before him and my native american ancestors before them.

[Tezcatli]

Fraid I don't really care much for cockpit items. And 1 day of premium time isn't going to amount to much since I don't have much time to play these days.

[Ozric]

Pretty good challenge. Not too hard to get the points and cockpit items are always a nice reward.

[Deathlike]

Terciel1976, on 10 October 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

So make them 2&2. No extra pressure, but no punishment either. Making kills less is really silly.

Jman5, on 10 October 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

What is the point of making kills worth less than assists? All that does is encourage people to play selfishly and pull their shot at the last moment. Kills and assists should be worth the same.

Let me repeat what I've said before about kills and assists.

You ONLY get an assist if the target you shot at eventually dies. There are literally no exceptions to that rule.

I want to hear the actual negative.

1) You're still getting points (literally, just ONE less point than the Assist).

2) Your teammates will thank you because they claim those points WITH YOU (even if you get one point less).

3) You are still padding your k-d ratio.

While kills and assists COULD be the same (which I'm not against), let me pose a few thoughts.

1) In a tourney, these points are NEVER cumulative BETWEEN matches. That match stands on its own, and the difference between a kill and an assist is ACTUALLY significant (usually a 10 points difference). People will play selfishly for a reason, and any sort of scoring that reinforces that notion will be reflected in play. It's that simple.

2) If assists and kills ARE the same, then the tendency to "solo alone" would be happening more than it should. Since there isn't "that much" of an incentive to solo targets yourself (and the likelihood of failing IS great), the scoring allows for players to work together... instead of a 50-50 shot that treating the Assist and the Kill like any regular match in terms of rewards.

3) The biggest thing people often forget about potentially close games and results, is that OFTEN TIMES the players don't "finish" of the target. In some circumstances, this impact is the difference between a far closer result (instead of 12-6, it could be 12-9 or so) or a "roflstomp" score that wasn't the case if you watched the entire match play out like dominos. If everyone is working together to even collect the assist, there will be that moment that someone will want to collect the kill even if it is less rewarding points wise. In the grand scheme of things, the victory condition makes up for that loss of a kill (do you regularly get 3 kills a match... seriously?)

If the points required were more than 200 as it currently has been for a while, I'd normally agree with "even scoring". The reality is... the scoring is working pretty well, as it should take no more than 3-4 hours in a session max (realistically 2-3 hours) to collect the reward.

I'm disappointed in that people are not really thinking about the human element when it comes these challenges. If you are killing things, you're one step closer to winning the match. The fact that it gives the least amount of points (just 1) should not be considered a deterrent (you are still getting a point, instead of nada). Your targets HAVE TO DIE to get an assist. 1 point less for a kill to get a win... shouldn't working together to win a match be more important above all else?

Edited by Deathlike, 10 October 2014 - 02:34 PM.

[jackal404]

After my experience with the Lance challenge I will pass. Over the length of that challenge, I was barely able to meet the requirements to make level 1, let alone all three.

While I am sure there I many who will be excited about this, I find the requirements too high for a casual player.

Those of you who participate, have fun!

[Goose]

Nevermind: ECM and Release Valves Everywhere.

[Eglar]

Bilbo, on 10 October 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

While it is easy to satisfy the requirement to receive the assist. The mechs you shot do actually have to die. Does no good to touch every mech on the enemy team if the rest of your team gets rolled like a carpet.

im sorry, forgot to mention was running in a lords 12 man today 23 games total/ 23x Wins/19x12-0/7x games under 3 minutes

But on a serious note. Winning has always been a condition for getting additional score (both in the challenge and the tournaments) And lets be honest, even if it's conquest mode, how many games do you actually win by killing all people and how many by point victory. So in the end I am still confused why PGI has decided to rate assists higher than kills. If anything it will encourage people not to play as team because everyone is desperate not to deal the killing blow.

Deathlike, on 10 October 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'm disappointed in that people are not really thinking about the human element when it comes these challenges. If you are killing things, you're one step closer to winning the match. The fact that it gives the least amount of points (just 1) should not be considered a deterrent (you are still getting a point, instead of nada). Your targets HAVE TO DIE to get an assist. 1 point less for a kill to get a win... shouldn't working together to win a match be more important above all else?

so.... why not just rewards kills more? e.g. 4 points. You just basically just listed down all the arguments for giving kills a higher reward than assists.

Edited by Eglar, 10 October 2014 - 03:26 PM.

[Alienized]

agressive ecm players are the best anyway. those who abuse it for sniping usually lose the battle by not covering your friends/ use ecm mechs as spotter away from the typical movement lines works out very well too. especially when you use the sensor upgrades module you dont even need narc/tag for it, just good positioning and map control/awareness.

[Deathlike]

Eglar, on 10 October 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

so.... why not just rewards kills more? e.g. 4 points. You just basically just listed down all the arguments for giving kills a higher reward than assists.

No. Every solo tourney has ALWAYS had the same complaint... people essentially BLOCKING each other to get a kill. Selfish play is in fact magnified and often times people that play solo (not necessarily being in the solo queue, but the guys that tend to do their own thing) often contribute to unfavorable outcomes in a match.

Giving Kills more value simply accelerates/generates more bad play.

If you're not concerned about your scoring or k-d ratio and care more about WINNING, people will get better results... and generally better experiences.

[MadLibrarian]

Everytime they add tag and narc assists to challenges, LRM usage goes up 10 fold. Playing in matches during challenges is a totally different experience to regular matches, for this reason. It is roughly equivalent to giving a bonus to any other weapon type for a weekend. Could you imagine if bonus points were granted for every match you got a hit with a large laser?

If anything, I think challenges should reward closer range weapons in order to incentivize weapons that are harder to use rather than the easiest.

[Eglar]

Deathlike, on 10 October 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

people essentially BLOCKING each other to get a kill. Selfish play is in fact magnified and often times people that play solo
Giving Kills more value simply accelerates/generates more bad play.

This is where you are contradicting your own statement:

Deathlike, on 10 October 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

The biggest thing people often forget about potentially close games and results, is that OFTEN TIMES the players don't "finish" of the target.
If you are killing things, you're one step closer to winning the match...

In your previous post you've already stated that Kills are essentially necessary for winning most matches and I will just add that there is only Kill-Securing in this game. Even if someone is out for a Kill, he got it because others on the team could not. He got it 0.1 Seconds earlier, so the enemy could not fire one last alpha-strike.

So what if I act very selfish and only got assists. leaving behind enemies cored, stripped, legged - thinking that some other idiot will certainly grab the kill? What? No complaints?

Edited by Eglar, 10 October 2014 - 04:15 PM.