37 replies to this topic

[Cyberiad]

Have been talking with some people about MPBT 3025 and how pinpoint damage was addressed in that game. In MPBT 3025, there was weapons convergence. However, it was hard to aim in that game because the weapons aim swayed along with the mech as it walks so it still took quite a while to destroy mechs. To me, it would make more sense if we actually aimed the torso and arms instead of aiming every individual weapon to one point, which doesn't make sense because it makes laser beams fire awkwardly at an angle out of the laser and bullets that travel out of the barrel at an angel. This effect is amplified and extremely noticeable when shooting at a mech at point blank range. What I would like to suggest is for weapons fire straight out of the lens/barrel/tube and that as pilots, we aim the arms and torsos instead of the weapons themselves. This way the arm and torso sway would affect aim while walking and also take time to converge when changing aim from far and close targets. This would address a lot of the problems in the game that have to do with pinpoint damage that the devs have tried to address with complicated and convoluted mechanics such as guass charge, ppc & guass coupling, ghost heat, jump jets, etc. In this proposed system of aiming, multiple lasers in an arm like the Wolverine would rake mechs with lasers instead of doing pinpoint damage. Does anyone disagree or like this idea?

[Mcgral18]

Dat convergence...




Not quite right, in my opinion. I'm not against single, or a small battery of weapons having pinpoint convergence, but 40+ damage all applied to the same hitbox does seem off.

The WubShee applied 50+ damage to pretty much the same, or sometimes two, hitboxes in 0.6 seconds. The DeathStar is very effective.

Edited by Mcgral18, 10 October 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[H I A S]

What Build have 50+ Pinpoint?

[Mcgral18]

HiasRGB, on 10 October 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

What Build have 50+ Pinpoint?

Banshees, Timbies, Whales, Novas...kinda, DoomCrow, Loki, Man o'War, Awesomes, 3D, anything with enough E slots, or enough tonnage for a pair of Gauss and the tonnage to make use of them.

Edited by Mcgral18, 10 October 2014 - 11:57 AM.

[Eddrick]

If weapon convergence were removed. It would spread damage naturally. The only way all shots would hit the same spot is if each weapon were fired one at a time and with aim adjustments made for each shot fired. Which, encourages chain fire. If you add recoil into the max after that. It makes all shot hitting the same spot still possible. But, even more difficult.

[Colby Boucher]

Eddrick, on 10 October 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

If weapon convergence were removed. It would spread damage naturally. The only way all shots would hit the same spot is if each weapon were fired one at a time and with aim adjustments made for each shot fired. Which, encourages chain fire. If you add recoil into the max after that. It makes all shot hitting the same spot still possible. But, even more difficult.

I think completely removing convergence would be a little much - imagine having to aim your gauss rifle in such a way that you don't even see your enemy anymore. But non-pinpoint convergence? Definitely. Honestly, some people are worried that it wouldn't be "fun", but does anyone remember back when the Hunchback had a glitch where the ballistic in the right torso never hit exactly where the crosshair pointed? I actually thought it was hugely fun once you figured out how to aim the thing. Felt more realistic, too, since the thing is pretty much welded right to your torso.

[Xarian]

If you're decent with SRMs, you can achieve the same effect; not quite as reliably, but less heat.

3x SRM6 + 3 MPL = >51 damage in <1 second (GRF, KTO, SHD, WVR, etc)
2x SRM6 + 4 MPL + AC/20 = >64 damage in <1 second (AS7-D, etc)

Colby Boucher, on 10 October 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

I think completely removing convergence would be a little much - imagine having to aim your gauss rifle in such a way that you don't even see your enemy anymore. But non-pinpoint convergence? Definitely. Honestly, some people are worried that it wouldn't be "fun", but does anyone remember back when the Hunchback had a glitch where the ballistic in the right torso never hit exactly where the crosshair pointed? I actually thought it was hugely fun once you figured out how to aim the thing. Felt more realistic, too, since the thing is pretty much welded right to your torso.

Also, look at it this way: removing/restricting convergence would allow PGI to buff Gauss Rifles - twin Gauss would be nearly impossible to hit at a distance, but it would be the same as current to hit with a single Gauss. Gauss on arms of some IS mechs (like the Victor) would be incredibly valuable, Gauss on the arms of Clan and other IS mechs (Direwolf, Victor) would be valuable but less so, and Gauss in the torsos would be further less valuable.

Removing or significantly restricting convergence encourages "frankenmech" builds, which IMO is a very good thing.

Edited by Xarian, 10 October 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[H I A S]

Mcgral18, on 10 October 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Banshees, Timbies, Whales, Novas...kinda, DoomCrow, Loki, Man o'War, Awesomes, 3D, anything with enough E slots, or enough tonnage for a pair of Gauss and the tonnage to make use of them.

Can you send me the Konfigs?

[Xarian]

HiasRGB, on 10 October 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

Can you send me the Konfigs?

Wubshee is in his signature...

[H I A S]

Xarian, on 10 October 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

Wubshee is in his signature...

lol, thats no Pinpoint.

[Egomane]

Silicon Life, on 10 October 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Have been talking with some people about MPBT 3025 and how pinpoint damage was addressed in that game. In MPBT 3025, there was weapons convergence. However, it was hard to aim in that game because the weapons aim swayed along with the mech as it walks so it still took quite a while to destroy mechs.

Sorry, to disagree on this!

Aiming in MPBT3025 was super easy. You didn't have to hold your aim on a location. All you had to do, was to pull the trigger at the right moment and all damage from your weapons would impact at that point, with perfect pinpoint accuracy. Even LRM and SRM and ignoring all terrain and mech movement. Mechs with big heads were frowned upon because of that, as they usually died due to a head loss from a single LRM-15 or dual LRM-10s at maximum distance. Even when they made it back into cover.

The sway wasn't that hard to compensate and even in jumping, I usually did hit what I was aiming for.

[Mcgral18]

HiasRGB, on 10 October 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

lol, thats no Pinpoint.

That is pinpoint.

Are you thinking of Frontloaded pinpoint? Completely different, just as SRMs are frontloaded, but not pinpoint.


Care to elaborate? Lasers go exactly where the crosshair points; IE, pinpoint.

[Eglar]

Mcgral18, on 10 October 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Banshees, Timbies, Whales, Novas...kinda, DoomCrow, Loki, Man o'War, Awesomes, 3D, anything with enough E slots, or enough tonnage for a pair of Gauss and the tonnage to make use of them.

i find it funny that lasers that were never considered to be doing pinpoint in the poptart era are all now suddenly pinpoint weapons.

[Tangelis]

Remove the crosshairs on the Hud.

Now Aim.

[Mcgral18]

Eglar, on 10 October 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

i find it funny that lasers that were never considered to be doing pinpoint in the poptart era are all now suddenly pinpoint weapons.

Since when have the NOT been pinpoint?

They've never been frontloaded. That is, not PP FLD.

They've always been PP.

[Eglar]

Mcgral18, on 10 October 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

Since when have the NOT been pinpoint?

They've never been frontloaded. That is, not PP FLD.

They've always been PP.

Eglar, on 10 October 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

doing pinpoint

meaning the ability to keep all damage-ticks on one single component.

[Mcgral18]

Eglar, on 10 October 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

meaning the ability to keep all damage-ticks on one single component.

No...that's frontloaded, dealing all damage in one instance.

Pinpoint is dealing damage to a single location, lasers fit into that.


They aren't mutually exclusive. isACs, Gauss and PPCs are PP FLD. All lasers are pinpoint, you know, deathstars. Missiles are FLD, but not pinpoint because of their CoF.


I take it there are different definitions for different people.

[Koniving]

HiasRGB, on 10 October 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

lol, thats no Pinpoint.

It's 0.6 seconds of pinpoint, but it is still pinpoint.

[Xarian]

Eglar, on 10 October 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

meaning the ability to keep all damage-ticks on one single component.

Pinpoint means perfect accuracy.
Front-loaded means all the damage gets done immediately.

Keeping all the damage ticks on a single component can happen because:
(1) Damage is front-loaded, or
(2) You have good aim

All lasers are pinpoint. Lasers are not front-loaded.
Machineguns are neither pinpoint nor front-loaded.
SRMs are not pinpoint, but they are front-loaded.

Understand? They mean different things.

[Koniving]

A simple solution. It's not perfect, but it adds something. As Ego mentioned it's still very easy to counter for it but if we combine this with the removal of a number of "Front Loaded" systems that shouldn't exist (such as ACs being one shot), it'll do a world of good for the game.

This is long and without explanation, but, consider what you see. In first person, perfect pinpoint. In third person, the aim moves with everything the mech does. If the mech bobs, the aim bobs, if the mech sways, the aim sways, if the body is jerked from being shot, the aim is thrown WAY off.

Battletech (the board game) tries to simulate accuracy based on mech movement with modifiers. 0 for stationary, +1 for walking, +2 for running, +3 for jumping/sprinting. Each number makes it that much harder to hit something accurately.
In MWO we already have something that emulates that. It's already in teh game, all the work is done. But for some reason it only works in third person. In first person the aim is stagnate, non-moving.


To go a step further... here is a first person match where we are spreading our fire using a chain fire method from both perspectives.



The -- at the time -- unnerfed Dire Wolf wins in first person, where pinpoint allows you to overcome damage over time mechanics with ease.

In every third person fight, the Dire Wolf loses. Regardless of if it's me playing it or the two of us swapping accounts and him playing it. It always loses in third person. And this is where both mechs are forced into armlock, even! Stock. Non-stock. The front loaded damage of ACs on any IS mech, even PURE STOCK HIGHLANDER 733C trumps the Dire Wolf.

This is because the DPS mechanics are more spread due to movement; to get near perfect aim I have to stand still. But the front loaded damage mechanics, as Egomane said about MPBT3025, easily allow you to overcome it. The Inner Sphere in that regard is grossly overpowered in front loaded damage.

Edited by Koniving, 10 October 2014 - 02:25 PM.