37 replies to this topic

[Saiphas Cain]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...72f44c6a8d37949

I've tried straight brawler builds with the D-DC and almost universally they overheat when I need them to keep spitting damage. The alpha is incredible on a brawling Atlas build but you have to get close enough to apply that damage and while you're closing range you're not doing anything productive.

I've been using this build to mediocre effect. It falls into the boring, but effective category. It doesn't net the 5 and 10 kills others do but it seems to help shift the tide in favor of my team by applying consistent pressure on the enemy over the course of the battle. It also doesn't require l33t tournament skillz to use.

The LRM's are considered a joke by many but they apply pressure and let you position out of the line of fire early on when fights are dominated by maneuver and alpha strike. That's not the point you want to get stuck in because you cannot fade fast enough to save yourself. If you try, your allies are going to pile in behind you, tripping you and cutting off your escape while your bulk blocks their return fire.

Once a few enemies have been eliminated ( and you no longer face 200 point combined alphas from teams of enemy heavies working in concert ) you can wade in and absorb some damage. The short term DPS is lower than brawler builds but not firing 3 SRM6's helps keep the heat under control and shutting down in an exposed position is a death sentence to most mechs regardless of tonnage.

Resist the urge to guard a flank solo. This is just as bad as wading into combat at the first opportunity and being torn to pieces by clan UAC/20's. Hang back a bit and see how the battle line develops while throwing 20 LRM barrages at targets of opportunity. They won't do much damage but they force the enemy to get small or take hits. If your fire is coming from a different angle than the main firefight all the better. It's hard to take shelter from unseen opponents while taking shelter from other, direct fire weapons simultaneously.

Put your lasers in one group, your AC/20 in another, and your LRM's in a third. I assign my third group to the 'E' key so I can tap it when needed but it's not primary. I don't want to be messing with that when I'm in melee range and indirect fire means my finger can stray from the D key since I won't need to twist.

Be sure to fire your lasers and AC/20 separately so you can lead the target properly. Do remember that if the enemy is brawling near 200M or so you CAN unleash the LRM's in addition to the other weapons. It spikes your heat a bit but adds pressure and keeps them rocking. If you're especially dexterous you can fire the LRM's at a more distant target then hit closer foes with the lasers and AC/20.

Be sure to unload as many volleys of LRM's at the enemy as you can before getting stuck in. You want to burn through your torso ammo before some clanner crits you. The standard engine means you can lose the side torsos and survive. You will lose your gun torso first every time because people HATE that AC/20. It seriously draws a lot of fire. If you're properly positioned you can fade back a bit when that happens and continue to throw LRM fire into the mix.

Twist, a lot. If you're not pulling the trigger or aiming you shouldn't be facing the enemy. If you charge in facing forward and holding the trigger down you're going to die, horribly. This is universally true of any mech of course but this is an especially slow one and stays exposed much longer when overextended.

Happy hunting

[Dagon Zur]

..i suggest you drop BAP and AMS, upgrade to Endo, reduce a bit of ammo/armor and go STD325 engine,it will help a lot.

something like this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c3fd1d1bdb920ae

[Praslek2]

For a long time, this build was the Gold Standard in brawling assault mechs. It's called the Hammer (Mk. III if you want to be specific):

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cb14d61bcb86785

I tested it out again after Clans arrived, and it blew through two Dire Wolves and a Masakari before they put me down, so take what you will from that.

The design has huge weaknesses (no long range weapons whatsoever, limited AC20 ammo...), but overheating was not one of them. Just don't fire the medium lasers unless you are shooting at lights or you have a lot of spare heat capacity to use on your current target. If you stick to just the AC20 and the SRM's it should do fine, in regard to heat.

It probably goes without saying, but since it's a brawler, you'll have to get into close quarters or you'll be shredded trying to fight outside your range.

[XYLYNX]

On a DDC let others apply lrm pressure. Keep your ecm a running and safely close the gap until its hammer time.I have seen a lot of DWs outgunning atlas at range like its a cakewalk. Lol talk about pressure, 4 to 5 cuac5s is sick pressure,but when a DDC can get into knife fighting range with 3srm6,ac20 and 2 large lasers the DWs seem to crumple as long as you focus the ct.I think once the ecm Loki lands the DDC may become extinct and replaced by more DWs,but that's just an opinion and if your build works for you,I say use it.

[Saiphas Cain]

I agree with both analysis to an extent actually. My problems running the Hammer Mk.III are based around technical skill and heat. Not having SRM's in close combat most assuredly hurts the brawling potential, but the added heat from the SRM 6's resulted in more time between shots and many more shutdowns. I'm not sure what the precise efficiency difference is but I shut down far more frequently running the Hammer than the newb friendly build. Trying to squeeze out maximum alpha and DPS just caught me in the lurch more often than not. Using LRM's, even if they seemed superfluous, gives me something to do while closing the range and waiting for the right time to strike. Any experienced Atlas pilot, of course, knows striking too deep too early gets you surrounded and whacked. I feel like this build gives newer players less impetus to stick their neck on the chopping block too early. It takes a long time to know when to go all in and I still screw up that call. The other reason I didn't care as much for the SRM's is I tend to get my torsos shot off a lot absorbing damage. I favor twisting to the right to expose my left side ( and try to protect the AC/20 longer ) and I'd rather be out of LRM ammo when I lose the left side than lose the firepower of the 3 SRM racks. It feels like less of a loss I guess, knowing they've already thrown all or most of their payload.

For the other build, there's some subtle differences there and while increased speed is always a boon, I'm not sure I'd want to trade in the AMS, beagle, and ammo for it. The extra targeting distance and close range ECM negation from the BAP mean never having to toggle the ECM. I know it seems redundant, but it's one less thing I have to split my attention on. The AMS I find handy when hanging back to further protect the team but I think the real decision between the 2 builds probably comes down to what spare engines are in your garage since the stock Atlas comes with neither.

Thanks for the critiques!

[Jon Gotham]

Dagon Zur, on 11 October 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

..i suggest you drop BAP and AMS, upgrade to Endo, reduce a bit of ammo/armor and go STD325 engine,it will help a lot.

something like this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c3fd1d1bdb920ae

I would not, ever advise anyone to drop BAP. It's too useful to the team as a whole in ECM negation duty.

[darkezero]

As much as I would hate to ruin your hopes and dreams of BAP countering ECM, it only works as long as the ECM isn't equipped as well. I direct you to here: http://mwomercs.com/...23-21-may-2013/

[Void Angel]

Saiphas Cain, on 19 October 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

I agree with both analysis to an extent actually. My problems running the Hammer Mk.III are based around technical skill and heat. Not having SRM's in close combat most assuredly hurts the brawling potential, but the added heat from the SRM 6's resulted in more time between shots and many more shutdowns.

You're doing it wrong. The temptation is to treat the Medium Lasers as spammable, because they're your smallest individual heat sources. This is a mistake, however; use the WeaponLab to compare the time to overheat of Your Build not using the LRMS (brawling effectiveness) to The Hammer sans Medium Lasers (set the sliders to zero.) "The Hammer" puts out 1.6 times the damage per second for 1.17 times as long. Additionally, you're sacrificing a critical amount of speed and torso mobility with the relatively tiny engine.

My advice for Atlas drivers is to always specialize. You have a lot of tonnage, but you don't have a lot of critical space because of how your important hardpoints are crammed into one torso location or another. This means that in order to get the most out of your Atlases, you want to focus on one kind of combat - generalist builds end up performing like an over-armored medium at whatever range you find yourself. Because your weapon locations are so cramped for space, it's always best to go for a focused build with the Atlas - particularly the D-DC.

[Saiphas Cain]

Void Angel, on 24 October 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

You're doing it wrong. The temptation is to treat the Medium Lasers as spammable, because they're your smallest individual heat sources. This is a mistake, however; use the WeaponLab to compare the time to overheat of Your Build not using the LRMS (brawling effectiveness) to The Hammer sans Medium Lasers (set the sliders to zero.) "The Hammer" puts out 1.6 times the damage per second for 1.17 times as long. Additionally, you're sacrificing a critical amount of speed and torso mobility with the relatively tiny engine.

My advice for Atlas drivers is to always specialize. You have a lot of tonnage, but you don't have a lot of critical space because of how your important hardpoints are crammed into one torso location or another. This means that in order to get the most out of your Atlases, you want to focus on one kind of combat - generalist builds end up performing like an over-armored medium at whatever range you find yourself. Because your weapon locations are so cramped for space, it's always best to go for a focused build with the Atlas - particularly the D-DC.

My temptation is to use my entire loadout alpha and twist like crazy during reload/cooldowns. If I'm not firing the mediums at all I'm not sure it's a fair comparison. Of course the Hammer will outdamage because in that case the SRM's are the primary damage source since they deal nearly double what the AC/20 does per shot. One argument I had is that alpha strikes spike the heat to an unacceptable degree for me and this may have to do with the large laser arms rather than medium ( which, admittedly I could trade up the engine for ), or I may be overzealous, but I also like the flexibility of the LRM's and large lasers because far off enemies can't simply plink at me without consequence. The lower rated engine makes my acceleration sad, and ensures I'm always the last one into the fight but I can throw LRMs over the heads of friendlies between me and the enemy and engage when they get out of the way. One question then about the SRM's. It's been some time since I used them but I just remembered not liking the difference in projectile speed between the SRM's and AC/20. Do you have these on separate triggers? I prefer to use a 2 group arrangement with any brawler so I don't need to coordinate additional fingers on that hand. ( With the LRM's I'm less concerned about maneuver while using them and can afford to split my focus ).

As darkezero points out I did actually notice that bit just the other day, long after my reply. It seems an odd effect but I'll go with it. When I'm close enough to nullify enemy ECM the last thing I'm doing is looking at the mini-HUD icons so I'll trust it's accurate. If nothing else the BAP at least extends my targeting range, though if it's not actually nullifying I'm tempted to drop it.

[Jon Gotham]

darkezero, on 24 October 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

As much as I would hate to ruin your hopes and dreams of BAP countering ECM, it only works as long as the ECM isn't equipped as well. I direct you to here: http://mwomercs.com/...23-21-may-2013/

I know this.....I was reffing his particular mech choice and anyone sans ECM should really have one imho. If yopu bring your quota of ECM chassis to a game, and everyone else has BAP-enemy ECM is going to have a bad day.
Your day is going to be much more pleasant as a result

[Void Angel]

Saiphas Cain, on 25 October 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

One question then about the SRM's. It's been some time since I used them but I just remembered not liking the difference in projectile speed between the SRM's and AC/20. Do you have these on separate triggers? I prefer to use a 2 group arrangement with any brawler so I don't need to coordinate additional fingers on that hand. ( With the LRM's I'm less concerned about maneuver while using them and can afford to split my focus ).

Sorry about the late reply; I was away from home on a drill weekend.

In answer to your question, absolutely. It's not just that their speeds are different - they come from different sides of the 'mech, so convergence comes into play at close ranges and near cover. If you fire them both at the same time, you'll often miss with one or the other, or hit different components at extreme close range. You can also use this effect to your advantage - I've killed people around corners with the SRMs when I couldn't actually see the target component from my cockpit. The Atlas is an extremely broad machine, and given the different ballistic properties and ranges, you need the ability to fire them separately.

My problem with generalist builds is that while they do leave you feeling like you're doing something, their effectiveness at any given range is always going to be mediocre. If your team is fine on the front lines sans an Assault's firepower, it can reward you - yet you're still putting out the firepower of a Medium Battlemech.

[FoxTrot05]

The Atlas is so slow regardless of the engine size I can't stand not having ERLL, ERPPC, or 15-20 lrms to ensure that I'm not chasing something I can't shoot. I get the logic of overspecialization as brawler with DDC, but pure brawler Atlas is something I can't do. I like my standard AC20 and either back it up with ERPPC/LPL + SRM or LRM. My twisting skills are lacking so I don't want to use large lasers because of longer burn times.

I admit the maximum damage potential from an atlas is under 270m but I find I last longer and contribute more if I hug cover and fight it out at 400-700m. Otherwise I'm hugging cover as a brawler and advancing alone robbing ECM support for the main body and being really screwed on alpine maps.

[Void Angel]

The problem with long-range energy weapons on the Atlas is that your slow speed, large profile, and low-mounted weapons make you lose sniper wars with more efficient 'mechs. LRMs have the problem that you simply can't fit enough missiles in that one torso to really focus on missiles with Inner Sphere technology - your maximum missile armaments would fit comfortably in a Catapult. ERPPCs, on the other hand, are so incredibly hot that even one can be a major liability in heavy combat. So, you can specialize in your worst area (long range,) or you can be a medium 'mech at all ranges, or you can specialize in close combat. Bear in mind that "close combat" doesn't mean "you must be fighting at under 270m at all times, and must use only Medium Lasers and SRMs with your AC/20."

I think there are some inconsistencies in your design philosopy, too. If you're avoiding lasers because they don't let you torso twist, I should point out that putting in a slow engine worsens your twist rate as well. I personally refuse to go lower than a 325 engine in an Atlas as a general rule - and even that may be too slow on the modern battlefield, because Clanners, at least in PuG games.

As for ECM, well - if the brawlers are advancing, the team needs to support them. They rob themselves of ECM if they don't support you. As well, you don't always have to engage as soon as possible. If people are playing the Hillbilly Moonshiner Feud game of exchanging desultory gunfire from behind their favorite hiding rocks, you can simply play security against spotting lights and go smash things once the snipers and missile monkeys finally get liquored up enough to close the distance.

Edited by Void Angel, 28 October 2014 - 12:06 AM.

[Jeffrey Wilder]

Way too slow even with tweak.

[SuperPignouf]

My take on the talk:

The Atlas cannot be used effectively as a mid / long range mech: it is so big and slow and its weapons are so spread on its body and so low mounted that you simply can't peek-shoot-hide like you would on a jagermech or so. Running a build based on (U)AC5 / AC 10 / gauss / PPCS is thus not a good idea. You could of course have some good games but other mechs do it so much better it's just not a good idea.

Same with LRM's: the Atlas is not an LRM boat, other mechs like the catapult, the stalker, the battlemaster, even the JagermechA are really better for LRM boating. Plus, running LRM's instead of SRM's will nullify your damage potential at close range.

What I'm trying to say is that you should play each mech to its strenght, and the strenght of the DDC is being able to pack an amazing punch at close range while carrying a ****-ton of armor and an ECM, making it the rallying point of your team and the center of any coordinate push. Your role as a DDC is to shield your friends with your ECM, serve them as a moving cover, lead a glorious charge when brawling time comes and open up the enemy assaults with your mighty SRM salvos.

An important point for me is that the Atlas is not good for new players because:
1) Regardless of your skill, you are dependant of your team. Get left behind without support and you will not have a good game.
2) You're big, slow and a bullet magnet. You have to know your maps and your timings really good because as soon as you go in, you can't go out. So whenever you enter a fight it's win or die.
3) Being a brawler, you are map dependant. Drop on a bad map for brawling and you will have a bad game.
4) As I said, the wrong team and the wrong map can screw your game regardless of your performance. So you will not have consistent results across your games with an Atlas. It is thus not the best mech to grind Cbills. And as a new player, having a good Cbills grinding machine is really important imho.
5) You have to master torso twisting to spread damage over your body and use your arms as shield as much as possible when you close up.
6) You have to master your heat and learn not to spam your lasers in a long brawling fight.

Here is the build I run : http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b1756d513b1b13e
It's an adaptation of https://www.mechspec...ase-std300.673/
I find that the dual LBX10 are way easier to shoot, give better range and run way less hot than the AC20. If you feel you're running too hot with the SRM6 + artemis you can switch them to SRM4 without artemis and go for bigger engine / more DHS.

Edited by SuperPignouf, 28 October 2014 - 02:00 AM.

[Saiphas Cain]

SuperPignouf - love the build. Ultra-shotgun looks hilarious and I may try that soon. So far as not being a newbie friendly mech, it probably isn't, but if you want to learn all those skills it takes there probably isn't anything better to drive.

Void Angel - Then my main issue is 3 triggers, which I'm uncomfortable with unless one of them is an LRM I can fire whilst not twisting, using a keyboard key. Maybe I'm just getting too old for this. I did start experimenting with a new build which is rather hilarious, minimalist, and sidesteps a few issues. I swap the 3 small LRM racks for a single LRM 15 and 2 SRM 6's ( no artemis ), drop the two lasers entirely, replacing the tonnage with 2 more DHS, and trading up the 270 for a 300. ( I'm with Foxtrot05 on needing something for range ) It's deficient to the hammer in brawling but removes the temptation to spam lasers by dismounting them. This also removes a trigger allowing me to assign the AC and SRM's to the two mouse buttons. The arms then both exclusively become shields and heat is rendered a non-issue. The build is more vulnerable to ammo explosions, but if the ammo is placed properly and as many LRM's as possible are fired before getting into face-stomp range it works well for me. I was concerned about losing the lasers if I run out of ammo but by the time I would run out of ammo, reasonably speaking, I'll have been "dis-armed" anyway so I don't even notice the loss.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...48df259f5067dfa

Part of my reasoning behind maintaining an LRM against all odds is still giving myself something to do while closing range. I always fire dead center mass on targets and the LRM shower applies damage to the mechs upper regions nicely in most cases. With so many clan mechs carrying LRM's now I've also noticed entire teams of AMS systems just straight up running out of ammunition, and not slowly either! A single LRM 15 isn't a boat by any means but it still peppers damage and runs down the AMS ammo count so other artillery missile mechs are then more effective. I don't think of the Atlas as a brawler, so much as I try and drive it like a mobile battlestation, trying to aid my team more than harvest individual kills. I appreciate the discussion, all.

[Void Angel]

You gotta be able to use three weapon groups at once, or you'll lose the ability to use a lot of effective loadouts. I try to avoid having more than that, because of the cognitive load - you can only juggle so many buttons. the only time I've used more than that effectively is when I've had dedicated long-range weapons like LRMs in the mix. So, the Atlas S stock config? Horrible. Way too many weapon types/locations to keep a handle on.

Now, for AMS, the "running AMS out of ammo" school of thought has some problems - first, that AMS' effectiveness is linear, not proportional. That is to say, the AMS system is not knocking out a proportion of the missile flight, it's just shooting down x missiles per second while in range. Your missile volley will (probably) result in more AMS ammo being used, but speaking as an LRM boat pilot (from time to time,) I'd rather you didn't bother. My huge storm of missiles isn't going to be much bothered by AMS if I position myself right, (the only way you really have a lot of interference from them is if the volley fires over multiple AMS, doubling the system's effectiveness,) and I've budgeted ammo for that, anyway. What I'd really rather have you do is bring the maximum amount of focused firepower that you can so that when we finally close with the enemy, you can keep them off my back more effectively.

On the subject of weapon groups, you should never be using the keyboard to fire them; some people actually do, so I'm just putting it out there. You can get a cheap multi-button mouse for $15-$20 and have a thumb button or two and maybe the ability to click your mousewheel left and right. Even if MWO doesn't recognize all the buttons (WoW didn't) you can simply bind them to keys you never use on the mouse's software, and interface with any game that way. =)

[FoxTrot05]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think an atlas needs 100% long range weapons. ERPPC would be paired with AC20/SRM's and I would stop firing the PPC's when in AC/SRM range. LRM's would be paired with AC20/LPL and such. Maybe 1/3 of the tonnage to long range weapons and the rest to brawling.

I don't mind STD 325 engines, sometimes you need to use up tonnage because a lack of crit slots. I just don't believe in going nuts with STD 350+ engines. Yes, you are "faster" and more agile, but you are devoting a larger chunk of tonnage away from guns and ammo.

[Void Angel]

Oh, I understood that; my difficulty is that the heat draw of that ERPPC is so huge that it makes a serious impact on your ability to use it in close combat - while the degree to which you have to expose yourself to use it at long range tends to make you take more damage than you deal. Still, I can see where you're coming from.

One thing to consider is that the benefit of higher engine rating isn't just about the increase in your numbers; it's about the proportional relationship between you and whatever else is on the battlefield. It's not just that you have X overland movement speed; it's also that they have Y overland speed themselves. So you can think of it as a matter of X per Y - how does my rating stack up with the ubiquitous Timber Wolf, for example? There's a lot of effects from this relationship that are hard to quantify, such as how much time I have to spend crossing a danger area while someone beats on me with ungodly-ranged Clan weaponry.

Right now, Clan BattleMechs have a large number of configurations which combine maximized (heat-limited) direct firepower with strong secondary systems like LRMs. If I want to be able to contend with those configurations, I'm going to have to bring my A Game at my chosen range and trust either my speed or my tactical judgement to bring me into that engagement zone. Now, other IS 'mechs can field maximized primary armaments with secondary systems - the Stalker springs to mind - but the Atlas cannot. Its hardpoint configuration simply doesn't support it. Thus, the only real area to flex is in Engine size - if I can fit a top-dps, heat-limited loadout close-range loadout onto my Atlas with a 350 Engine, that's a good build. If I'm cutting myself down to a single LB-10X to get the extra mobility on my underarmed Assault 'mech, I need to be socked in the head.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Saiphas Cain, on 10 October 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...72f44c6a8d37949


I've tried straight brawler builds with the D-DC and almost universally they overheat when I need them to keep spitting damage.

then you're doing it wrong. Didn't even read the rest of your post because you don't know what you're talking about

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b202ad4b2525020

or alternatively for people who like machine gun,

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9d2bd6d83cba610

(forget about artemis if you need more ammo)

Edited by Battlecruiser, 28 October 2014 - 01:43 PM.