44 replies to this topic

[Xarian]

Out of the 50+ games that I played last night in group queue, we fought a total of one 12-man team. We also had a 12-man team.

The fact that they beat you doesn't make them a 12-man team. An 8-man and 4-man team can be nearly as nasty if you're running 4x 3-man teams or similar.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

what my inkling hunch is simply that the MM will often pair larger groups against smaller groups. and larger groups on TS always have the advantage plain and simple there is no way around this. 6 2 mans or 4 3 mans are simply not going to be able to coord and move like a group of 6+ on TS.

solution? there is none really so i just dont group that often.

which is a shame because i often just want to play with my bro and a friend

also i do feel as tho individual skill meant more in 8v8 with the advent of 12v12 it feels like the murderball simply became a much more viable tactic and it does feel as tho losing 1-2 guys early in 12v12 is game so i dont really see the difference vs 8v8 where losing 1-2 men early was pretty much game.

Edited by Mellifluer, 11 October 2014 - 11:54 AM.

[Xarian]

Mellifluer, on 11 October 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

what my inkling hunch is simply that the MM will often pair larger groups against smaller groups. and larger groups on TS always have the advantage plain and simple there is no way around this. 6 2 mans or 4 3 mans are simply not going to be able to coord and move like a group of 6+ on TS.

solution? there is none really so i just dont group that often.

which is a shame because i often just want to play with my bro and a friend

What? No. The way MM works is that it requires small groups to fill in the holes left by larger groups. If you have a 9-man (or 10-man) team, then you must have a 3-man (or 2-man) team to fill in the gaps.

The main problem that small groups have in group queue is that they usually ignore the larger group that is on their team and wander around like they have their thumbs up their [redacted]. You can't just run around like it's solo queue or in your little group of 2-3 guys and do what you want; you're part of a team, and you have to act like it. If you can't learn that, you'll continue to lose.

[Epoch Warrior]

The assumption that all small groups run off on their own is incorrect. Many players grouping with 2-3 players usually have a sense of survival and strong interest in winning a match. Please don't assume the problem is that all small groups or lone wolves are *******.

* R e t a rd s

Even in single player que, you will find the predominate tactic most players take is to group up. The team that wins is the one that coordinates the best on the fly. Still doesn't over come the problem of premades on voice chat having a massive advantage and sucking the fun out of the game for casual players.

[Dock Steward]

Epoch Warrior, on 11 October 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

The assumption that all small groups run off on their own is incorrect. Many players grouping with 2-3 players usually have a sense of survival and strong interest in winning a match. Please don't assume the problem is that all small groups or lone wolves are *******.

* R e t a rd s

I don't think the assumption was that all small groups are terrible (maybe it was, and I'm wrong), but more that people who play in small groups and STILL complain about 12 mans, are probably not doing a good job of playing with the other 9 or 10 grouped players on their team. There is very little difference between a team of 12 and a team of 10 plus 2, if the +2 make a point of playing with the strategy of the 10.

This is of course assuming that the 12 man team isn't one of the very top tier teams. Those guys are hella good.

[Epoch Warrior]

Again, operator skill aside. A Premade has a distinct advantage over a group thrown together filled with casuals. If they want to test their skills then they need to go up against the same organization.

Their is no "We're going to lose another match." mentality. There is no "I'm going to run off on my own and kill everyone, but die in the first minute." There is no "I don't wanna play with others."

It is what it is and making the argument that it's something else is pointless. Casual players are getting herded to either join a corp or single que.

[Dock Steward]

Epoch Warrior, on 11 October 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

Again, operator skill aside. A Premade has a distinct advantage over a group thrown together filled with casuals. If they want to test their skills then they need to go up against the same organization.

Their is no "We're going to lose another match." mentality. There is no "I'm going to run off on my own and kill everyone, but die in the first minute." There is no "I don't wanna play with others."

It is what it is and making the argument that it's something else is pointless. Casual players are getting herded to either join a corp or single que.

Or go on the public TS servers and temporarily join a group...

[Epoch Warrior]

So I have to join a temporary group to play with my 2 friends all the time?

Still doesn't address the issue.

[Dock Steward]

Epoch Warrior, on 11 October 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

So I have to join a temporary group to play with my 2 friends all the time?

Still doesn't address the issue.

No, you don't have to do anything, but the point is, 2 +10 is practically the same as 12 IF the 2 play with the 10 (as in work towards the same goal). The only time that this isn't true, I will concede, is against .01% of the teams out there. Those very few teams at the top are too good for almost anyone to beat.

[MessedUpWelshy]

Dock Steward, on 11 October 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

No, you don't have to do anything, but the point is, 2 +10 is practically the same as 12 IF the 2 play with the 10 (as in work towards the same goal).

This may be true but the issue is more with being in the 2, with a 1 and a 2 and another 1 etc up against a 10+. I have been in this situation myself many times. Some days or time slots, yes it isn't often but other times I've had it roughly 50% of my matches. I have fun playing this game with my friends on TS with them, not a bunch of people I don't know. I also have no desire to be a training dummy for those 10+ that we end up being matched against.

[Dock Steward]

MessedUpWelshy, on 11 October 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

This may be true but the issue is more with being in the 2, with a 1 and a 2 and another 1 etc up against a 10+. I have been in this situation myself many times. Some days or time slots, yes it isn't often but other times I've had it roughly 50% of my matches. I have fun playing this game with my friends on TS with them, not a bunch of people I don't know. I also have no desire to be a training dummy for those 10+ that we end up being matched against.

I know it's not ideal, but we can only split players into so many buckets. Maybe when the game hits Steam, we'll get a huge influx of players. If we do, and they stick around for a while, then maybe the devs can create more buckets to alleviate the problem. It would be nice if 2 or 3 people could group and fight against other casuals, as the group queue can be rather competitive at the moment.

[Deathlike]

Kavoh, on 11 October 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

This "irrational fear" is generally due to the fact that a 2 man group goes up against it. Don't get me wrong, I have faced my share of 12 mans as a 2 man and won quite a few. But it heavily depends on your team as a small group unlike being in an 8~ man where you can effectively control the flow of the battle with your group.

The thing is, I have personally no problem being part of that 2, 3, 4-man group to. I've played enough games to have the kind of confidence to play it. Other people won't feel the same. The key thing is to actually work with the other groups... however bigger or smaller they are. When a group refuses to do so, inevitability bad things happen.

Vassago Rain, on 11 October 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

Yeah, there's a ton of 12 manz.



Before we killed them all in less than 3 minutes.

Got wrecked. Sorry. ggclothes

I enjoyed the video, since I had no idea that was what you meant...


I will say that the common theme for BAD big groups, is that they have no plan, generally speaking. While anyone with a clue could group up together, the problem is that focus fire generally tends to be woefully inefficient, due to players not being on the same page. The key thing here is to have someone smart/wise enough to call targets that logically help the team win... even if it is limited to whoever's on your team on TS. You can kinda pick up with "who to ideally focus fire on" in solo PUGs, but then again, the quality of the players to demonstrate this tend to be far and few in between.

Nevertheless, you would think training and practice would improve team skills to overcome adversity... instead of just complaining about the "supposed imbalance" (outside of getting bad drops vs Lords) and actually work on your team skills. There's a little more to shooting things in MWO.

[Kavoh]

Dock Steward, on 11 October 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

No, you don't have to do anything, but the point is, 2 +10 is practically the same as 12 IF the 2 play with the 10 (as in work towards the same goal). The only time that this isn't true, I will concede, is against .01% of the teams out there. Those very few teams at the top are too good for almost anyone to beat.

I can tell you right now. Out of the 300+ games I have dropped solely as a 2 man group, the number of games I have been with a 10 man group is in the single digits. There are occasions when I get higher premades, like 6, 7, or 8, but a massive majority of the time I am facing a premade of any kind, it just so happens my group consists of small groups of 2-4 as well.

I can only recall one "good game" in which I was with a 10 man team vs a 12 man premade. One.

Deathlike, on 11 October 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

The thing is, I have personally no problem being part of that 2, 3, 4-man group to. I've played enough games to have the kind of confidence to play it. Other people won't feel the same. The key thing is to actually work with the other groups... however bigger or smaller they are. When a group refuses to do so, inevitability bad things happen.

I've never thrown in the towel or given up in a game, even against a 12 man I know would crush me. What would be the point? I usually mention that I have fought and beaten them and that it's possible even if I am myself a little frustrated about the situation, but the despair that goes on in chat is ridiculous. I don't really blame them for it though. I solely drop as a 2 man at the moment, so I am always fully prepared to get absolutely rolled when I get placed in a team of 4 other clans mixed together versus a 12 man. I'll always try and work as a team, but when the rest of my team scatters like roaches and gets picked off 1 by 1 by their deathball or constantly nascar around leaving our assaults and heavies to get overrun and picked off while they continue to run away without fighting, its really out of my hands.

On a closing note, I don't know what the MM attempts to do with large groups, but a massive majority of the time I am the one facing the premades of 6 or more. It's always me plus 3-4 other small groups vs groups of 8+ when premades are involved. I can't recall the last time I was ever on an 8+ man team vs a straight "pug" group of small man groups.

[Dock Steward]

Kavoh, on 11 October 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

I can tell you right now. Out of the 300+ games I have dropped solely as a 2 man group, the number of games I have been with a 10 man group is in the single digits. There are occasions when I get higher premades, like 6, 7, or 8, but a massive majority of the time I am facing a premade of any kind, it just so happens my group consists of small groups of 2-4 as well.

I can only recall one "good game" in which I was with a 10 man team vs a 12 man premade. One.


I've never thrown in the towel or given up in a game, even against a 12 man I know would crush me. What would be the point? I usually mention that I have fought and beaten them and that it's possible even if I am myself a little frustrated about the situation, but the despair that goes on in chat is ridiculous. I don't really blame them for it though. I solely drop as a 2 man at the moment, so I am always fully prepared to get absolutely rolled when I get placed in a team of 4 other clans mixed together versus a 12 man. I'll always try and work as a team, but when the rest of my team scatters like roaches and gets picked off 1 by 1 by their deathball or constantly nascar around leaving our assaults and heavies to get overrun and picked off while they continue to run away without fighting, its really out of my hands.

On a closing note, I don't know what the MM attempts to do with large groups, but a massive majority of the time I am the one facing the premades of 6 or more. It's always me plus 3-4 other small groups vs groups of 8+ when premades are involved. I can't recall the last time I was ever on an 8+ man team vs a straight "pug" group of small man groups.

Unfortunately the match maker can only use what it has to work with. You're getting teamed up the best way the MM can at the time you hit launch. Yeah, I can understand the frustration, but only a bigger pool of players can solve the issue. Unless they disallow certain group sizes or create more buckets.

[Deathlike]

Kavoh, on 11 October 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

I've never thrown in the towel or given up in a game, even against a 12 man I know would crush me. What would be the point? I usually mention that I have fought and beaten them and that it's possible even if I am myself a little frustrated about the situation, but the despair that goes on in chat is ridiculous. I don't really blame them for it though. I solely drop as a 2 man at the moment, so I am always fully prepared to get absolutely rolled when I get placed in a team of 4 other clans mixed together versus a 12 man. I'll always try and work as a team, but when the rest of my team scatters like roaches and gets picked off 1 by 1 by their deathball or constantly nascar around leaving our assaults and heavies to get overrun and picked off while they continue to run away without fighting, its really out of my hands.

The thing about getting bad groups, is that over time, you'll probably win more than they will over time. So, it's always best to concern yourself with your own groups performance. Even in a loss, it's always worth wondering what you or your team could have done better (at least you should be able to find one thing), and work on it. Sometimes you are that team that carried, but failed because the rest of the team that wasn't part of your particular group failed to be useful. It happens. Ultimately, you should not worry about the things you cannot control.. just worry about what you know is to be reliable.

Quote

On a closing note, I don't know what the MM attempts to do with large groups, but a massive majority of the time I am the one facing the premades of 6 or more. It's always me plus 3-4 other small groups vs groups of 8+ when premades are involved. I can't recall the last time I was ever on an 8+ man team vs a straight "pug" group of small man groups.

I'm not sure if that's fixable. Either you construct a 8 to 10-man with a small premade of 2-4, or you get 3 or even 4 different smaller groups into one. It is not impossible for either to succeed vs a 12-man... it simply requires people working together more effectively... and it's not easy. The easiest thing I can tell you... if you treat the opponent like any other group.. for the most part, you'll probably win more than you will lose.

Here's the secret to how 12-mans fail: If you are more coordinated than they are, you'll probably win.

[Dock Steward]

Kavoh, on 11 October 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

I can tell you right now. Out of the 300+ games I have dropped solely as a 2 man group, the number of games I have been with a 10 man group is in the single digits. There are occasions when I get higher premades, like 6, 7, or 8, but a massive majority of the time I am facing a premade of any kind, it just so happens my group consists of small groups of 2-4 as well.

Also, look at it this way: if you can get 10 people on TS, then you can probably wrangle two more on your own. Groups of 10, I would speculate, have got to be more rare than groups of 5,6,7,8, etc. If you're often dropping in a 2 person group, yeah, the MM is probably going to have a hard time finding a group of 10 for you, and the only other option the MM has, is to group you with multiple smaller groups.

[Kavoh]

Deathlike, on 11 October 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

The thing about getting bad groups, is that over time, you'll probably win more than they will over time. So, it's always best to concern yourself with your own groups performance. Even in a loss, it's always worth wondering what you or your team could have done better (at least you should be able to find one thing), and work on it. Sometimes you are that team that carried, but failed because the rest of the team that wasn't part of your particular group failed to be useful. It happens. Ultimately, you should not worry about the things you cannot control.. just worry about what you know is to be reliable.



I'm not sure if that's fixable. Either you construct a 8 to 10-man with a small premade of 2-4, or you get 3 or even 4 different smaller groups into one. It is not impossible for either to succeed vs a 12-man... it simply requires people working together more effectively... and it's not easy. The easiest thing I can tell you... if you treat the opponent like any other group.. for the most part, you'll probably win more than you will lose.

Here's the secret to how 12-mans fail: If you are more coordinated than they are, you'll probably win.

I fully agree. No matter the game I gauge my performance and critique my gameplay. Most of my games I am in the top 3 of performance even on an extreme loss. And that was exactly my point. Being a 2 man group, we are at the mercy of the rest of our team, which is very inconsistent.

As I said earlier, I know its doable and I have done it many times. I am just saying its not consistent and is hit and miss with the people filling the rest of the team. I feel like my original post was misunderstood, and I should note that I was just expanding my point of view on the issue upon the posts that I quoted. I don't want the system to change as its fine as it is now (READ: more or less "balanced" for all game styles), and any other way would be disastrous for both sides (solo and 12 man).

[Deathlike]

Kavoh, on 11 October 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

I fully agree. No matter the game I gauge my performance and critique my gameplay. Most of my games I am in the top 3 of performance even on an extreme loss. And that was exactly my point. Being a 2 man group, we are at the mercy of the rest of our team, which is very inconsistent.

As I said earlier, I know its doable and I have done it many times. I am just saying its not consistent and is hit and miss with the people filling the rest of the team. I feel like my original post was misunderstood, and I should note that I was just expanding my point of view on the issue upon the posts that I quoted. I don't want the system to change as its fine as it is now (READ: more or less "balanced" for all game styles), and any other way would be disastrous for both sides (solo and 12 man).

The MM struggles with what it has to work with. It's understandable. That's what makes the NPE sad... it would be nice for people to embrace the challenge of a 12-man (both being part of one, and facing them). That's the biggest thing that ails this game...

[Triordinant]

Offrezwolf, on 10 October 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

As it currently stands, the two options I have is join a corp to do 12 man runs or do a private match. I have no interest in joining a corp as I jump on randomly just for fun with two of my buddies 2-3 times a week. Private matches are great for corp vs corp matches, but not great for when you just want to play vs other like minded people who play either solo or with 1 or 2 friends.

Right now, the game is not fun to play, and with the sheer number of 12 man premades now online maybe it is time to go back to the old matchmaking system. Where 12 man premades only go up against other 12 man premades. Extend it to 8 man premades and 4 man premades as well. I know I am not the only one sick of this, as this is a constant complaint in team chat.

So, fellow mechwarriors - what sort of solutions would you suggest to the dev team about fixing the match making?

Here's the bottom line: almost no one wants to play against the big organized well-trained Units, but PGI needs them for Community Warfare. In order to save the game (players were leaving in droves after being repeatedly curbstomped by big organized Units), PGI created a solo-only queue to keep the big Units from preying on the casual PUGs that made up the vast majority of players. However, they also wanted to retain the big organized Units who were not playing because they had to wait forever to find a match for their 12-man teams or were being limited to 4-man teams. Someone had to get the shaft and I suspect rather than sticking it to the solo players (who are by far the most numerous) or the big organized Units (who are the biggest spenders of real money per player), they decided the short end of the stick would go to the small casual groups (who are neither the most numerous or the biggest spenders).

The only solution I can see on the horizon is PGI rolling out Community Warfare as soon as possible. Hopefully, most of those big, organized and well-trained Units no one wants to play with will all migrate there during peak hours (which is when CW is planned to be held), leaving the group queue mostly to small, casual groups. The downside to this is CW becoming the private preserve of the big competitive Units where small casual groups and soloists become clay pigeons because there's no Elo matchmaking at all in CW (this has been confirmed by the Devs).

[Shredda]

I'm running into them pretty often, and it's severely taxing the enjoyability of the game. I have no interest in creating or joining a 10 or 12 man group just to play this game with my "mere" couple of friends that I enjoy playing it with, and I shouldn't be "required" to do so considering the amount of time and money I've invested in this "free to play" game. Also, considering the extreme wait times we're all still seeing, I cannot except that it's worth ruining the game experience for the 2 and 3 man groups. Why not limit 12 man connections to groups of 4 and above or at least to matches where at least two of the lances are 4 man in configuration? Completely doable and would still be less wait time for 12 man groups than waiting for 12 man vs 12 man connections. It's getting old....