13 replies to this topic

[zencynic]

I was trying to explain a bit of MWO/Battletech to a friend yesterday, focusing on role warfare and weight classes.

I gave him my standard quip of
"light mechs scout and poke,
medium mechs help and float,
heavy mechs kill all around,
assault mechs take and hold ground"

He said, "so assault mechs don't kill mechs?' and I said , "only if the other mech chooses to die"

A properly built assault mech has a fearsome weapons loadout for several ranges and oodles of armor. It's weakness tends to be its speed.

You can tinker some and get more speed, especially with some of the nicer, shinier clan/lost/experimental/new tech. But it comes at a cost, you give up something from the above strengths. Maybe you focus your weapons loadout on one range. Maybe you keep your versatility but drop some ammo or heat sinks. Maybe you drop some armor. Something has to give and you lose some of that commanding presence that makes you an Assault mech. You become an overweight Heavy. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be pretty ugly. See Charger 1A1 for an example.

An assault mech stands somewhere and says, if you want in, you have to deal with me.

An assault mech goes somewhere, and anything that is there has to leave or deal with it.

The assault mech picks the place of the fight. The enemy gets to choose whether or not to have a fight.

Heavy mechs are killers because they can force an engagement. You can play them differently of course. This is all subject to preference. Just my thoughts.

Edited by zencynic, 24 June 2012 - 01:47 AM.

[DontGetCrabs]

Thats how it should be, never has been in the different mechwarrior games iv played

[TyGeR STD]

Something I have been wondering that maybe someone can shed some light on for me. One part of your post you said Maybe you focus you weapons loadout on one range. What's the problem with useing long range weapons up close? I know some weapons like LRMs have to be like 200m+ before they can lock but what about useing PPCs or a gauss at close range? What's the down side?

[Alexander Caine]

PPCs have a minimum range...how they implement that (if they do) is unknown though. Most likely won't converge that close or will do less damage, dunno.

[KageRyuu]

TyGeR STD, on 24 June 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

Something I have been wondering that maybe someone can shed some light on for me. One part of your post you said Maybe you focus you weapons loadout on one range. What's the problem with useing long range weapons up close? I know some weapons like LRMs have to be like 200m+ before they can lock but what about useing PPCs or a gauss at close range? What's the down side?

Damage efficiency primarily.

Pretty much you can get more close ranged weapons for the same weight/space/heat of their longer ranged cousins. For instance, weight wise you can get 5 medium lasers lasers for 1 larger laser, dealing 25 damage compared to only 8. Though with hard points implemented it'll be difficult if not impossible to boat like that, still if you have the hard points available 2 medium lasers will do more damage for less heat and weight then a single large laser at the expense of range.

Additionally, like the guy said above most long ranged weapons have a minimum range, (All AC 2 and 5 normal ultra and LBX, gauss rifle, normal PPC, and LRMs), and depending on how the devs decide to play that out it could really effect the use of said long ranged weaponry in close.


As for the OP, if played correctly Assaults make for great line breakers and area denial weapons, but more than any other mech Assaults rely on terrain to offset their largest weakness, speed and maneuverability. Of course to some degree broader weapon selections can make up for this down fall allowing them to carry plenty of long and short ranged weapons to make up for their lack of speed and switching between the two instead of alpha striking constantly to save on heat sinks.

This is why heavies and even mediums are seen as the work horses of the battle field, because they move faster they can carry their weapons to wherever their needed quicker allowing them to fill holes in a defensive line or to apply pressure at a weak point in the enemy's defense to topple them.

So, so long as an assault plays smart and doesn't try to over specialize he remains a force on the battlefield. However when he does try to specialize in short range and to a lesser degree long ranged combat, he pays for it dearly, either by being sniped to death from faster long ranged mechs, or if he goes long ranged being out gunned in close by brawlers and strikers.

Edited by KageRyuu, 24 June 2012 - 02:30 AM.

[Morang]

TyGeR STD, on 24 June 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

What's the down side?

You usually pay for longer range by lower damage output of ballistic weapons and lower damage/heat ratio of beam weapons. Once range is close, the brawler with same tonnage of weaponry outguns you.

[CheeseThief]

People were talking about feed back from PPC's, so if you fire them at targets that are too close then you'll take damage as well. No idea what their going to do with Gauss Rifles though, maybe kick the convergence stat to the curb since they are supposed to be large and unwieldy.

ER PPC's don't have a minimum range but they also cause a lot of extra heat for that range advantage.

[LordDeathStrike]

zencynic, on 24 June 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

I was trying to explain a bit of MWO/Battletech to a friend yesterday, focusing on role warfare and weight classes.

I gave him my standard quip of
"light mechs scout and poke,
medium mechs help and float,
heavy mechs kill all around,
assault mechs take and hold ground"

He said, "so assault mechs don't kill mechs?' and I said , "only if the other mech chooses to die"

A properly built assault mech has a fearsome weapons loadout for several ranges and oodles of armor. It's weakness tends to be its speed.

You can tinker some and get more speed, especially with some of the nicer, shinier clan/lost/experimental/new tech. But it comes at a cost, you give up something from the above strengths. Maybe you focus your weapons loadout on one range. Maybe you keep your versatility but drop some ammo or heat sinks. Maybe you drop some armor. Something has to give and you lose some of that commanding presence that makes you an Assault mech. You become an overweight Heavy. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be pretty ugly. See Charger 1A1 for an example.

An assault mech stands somewhere and says, if you want in, you have to deal with me.

An assault mech goes somewhere, and anything that is there has to leave or deal with it.

The assault mech picks the place of the fight. The enemy gets to choose whether or not to have a fight.

Heavy mechs are killers because they can force an engagement. You can play them differently of course. This is all subject to preference. Just my thoughts.

like my mech 4 annihilator, 4 lbx 20s 2 med lasers. 33 kph top speed....... but god did you get wanked if you came near me! it was my solaris arena assault class, it dominated.

CheeseThief, on 24 June 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

People were talking about feed back from PPC's, so if you fire them at targets that are too close then you'll take damage as well. No idea what their going to do with Gauss Rifles though, maybe kick the convergence stat to the curb since they are supposed to be large and unwieldy.

ER PPC's don't have a minimum range but they also cause a lot of extra heat for that range advantage.

heats gonna be a ***** without coolant flush of previous games. aka you wont fire 2 er ppcs, flush, fire 2 more, flush and fire the first 2 again. likely youll fire 2, then another 2, then shut down and get had shot by a gauss rifle hehe.

or fire 4 at a time and go boom!

KageRyuu, on 24 June 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

Damage efficiency primarily.

Pretty much you can get more close ranged weapons for the same weight/space/heat of their longer ranged cousins. For instance, weight wise you can get 5 medium lasers lasers for 1 larger laser, dealing 25 damage compared to only 8. Though with hard points implemented it'll be difficult if not impossible to boat like that, still, 2 medium lasers will do more damage for less heat, and weight then a single large laser at the expense of range.

Additionally, like the guy said above most long ranged weapons have a minimum range, (All AC 2 and 5 normal ultra and LBX, normal PPC, and LRMs), and depending on how the devs decide to play that out it could really effect the use of said long ranged weaponry in close.

ya large lasers kinda suck and they are hot to fire per ton as well. meds are the work horse for a reason!

[zencynic]

I loved running 2 LBX 10s on a Puma in the light matches.

I dont remember using the Annihilator very much in MW4, but anything that can mount 4 LBX 20s has my full attention and respect. If I have to go near it, I will do so with friends... preferably them first.

Edited by zencynic, 24 June 2012 - 02:20 AM.

[Pvt Dancer]

Yeah, Assaults are line breakers and ground holders. But Assaults caught out in limbo (out of position) are not fast enough to respond to a changing battlefield.

Most heavies are over gunned and under armored.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

zencynic, on 24 June 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

An assault mech stands somewhere and says, if you want in, you have to deal with me.

An assault mech goes somewhere, and anything that is there has to leave or deal with it.

The assault mech picks the place of the fight. The enemy gets to choose whether or not to have a fight.

Heavy mechs are killers because they can force an engagement. You can play them differently of course. This is all subject to preference. Just my thoughts.

Jenner: Atlas pls go
Atlas: No.

[Clan Warrior]

TyGeR STD, on 24 June 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

Something I have been wondering that maybe someone can shed some light on for me. One part of your post you said Maybe you focus you weapons loadout on one range. What's the problem with useing long range weapons up close? I know some weapons like LRMs have to be like 200m+ before they can lock but what about useing PPCs or a gauss at close range? What's the down side?

Long range weapons are basically what they are long range. So if you have only long range weapons on your mech you should stay as far as possible.

Why? Because most long range weapons create lots of heat, they reload longer and if not heat based ballistic weapons then limited ammo they still reload slow.

You can use long ranged weapons up close but since they reload slow cause lots of heat they are not efficient when it comes to quick close quarter fighting where you can easily miss most of the time. So if you use long range weapons up close you become more defensive then offensive and you have to make sure that every shot counts. With medium to short range weapons you just can spam them almost at will.

Either way if you use ER PPC or PPC you would want to load this on assault mech they are slow so you have lots of time to pound your enemy from as far as possible right up close where you can switch to AC20 or LRM's but keep as far as possible as you can't maneuver well with assaults. When they get close if they survive then switch to medium or close weapons for most of the fight. You still need your little friends to help you defend up close if you're in assault mech. Funny as it may sound that's how it is

PS. Assault mechs are very clumsy up close not even clumsy they are just like whales in shallow water they struggle Need support mechs mediums and heavy to survive against lighter swarming mechs. Any smart light, medium and even heavy pilot would circle you to the death while taking shots at you.

Edited by Clan Warrior, 24 June 2012 - 03:17 AM.

[Haldricht]

If you look at the different mechs in tabletop or the previous MW games, you see that class is really meaningless and what you really have are movement brackets and varying degrees of efficiency in performing roles within them.

If you want the most efficient and survivable 50kph (or slower) mech, you go with a 100-ton mech. If you want the same at 64kph, you go with an 85-ton mech. At 85kph, you want 55-60 tons and at 97kph, you want 50-ton mech. For the 114kph goal, you want 40 tons. There is a speed/weight efficiency level and everything that goes over or comes in under is less efficient. XL engines and the like shift the efficient levels a bit, allowing you to use heavier mechs while achieving the same speeds as lighter designs.

That movement bracket and the choice of loadout will determine the ability of any mech to perform a role. There is no world where a 50-ton 64kph mech will be the equal of an 85-ton 64kph mech if you start with the same equipment on both. The 85-ton mech will come out ahead in every possible measure. Similarly, an 85kph 80-ton mech will be beaten cross the board by an 85kph 60-ton mech (excepting internal structure, of course).

An Urbanmech isn't a scout, despite the fact it's only 30 tons and falls into the "light" class. A Rifleman isn't a brawler, despite the fact it weighs 60 tons and falls into the "heavy" class. Class is meaningless, look at mobility, efficiency and loadout.

[Mutuh]

Why do I get the feeling, that when the game hits - assaults will be scouting and the rest camping near the base XD