65 replies to this topic

[Nightmare1]

MauttyKoray, on 13 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

People just can't be happy with a working system apparently. "Oh Noes! You can't disable playing a game mode!" Well, okay then maybe you should make makes that can play any mode and not just "LOLDPSDAKKAALLDAKILLALPHASPAMHEADSHOTTROLOLOL" mechs then? Maybe stop with the 'meta' crap builds and build versatility into your mech which -GASP- is a realistic thing in Battletech? Oh but wait I crossed the line because I brought up the content source of this game and now I'll get a bunch of hate responses because 'This isn't Battletech its a video game/Mechwarrior, go f yourself.' and what not.

That's good and all, but why consider it Mechwarrior if its not Battletech? In fact, that's part of the problem... You want to hit 100% heat? HAVE FUN MELTING YOUR FLESH OFF. You heard me. 100% heat should have a 66% chance to KILL THE PILOT, with a stacking bonus every overheat.

Back on topic: the soft game mode created some of the best skill comparison matches I have played since re-joining this game at the beginning of 2013. The only real thing I can think of is bad players and comp teams bitched about having to play with and against people of their skill level instead of having higher elo teammates to carry them or other comp team members to give them a challenge and not just let them roll.

But no, lets just go back to having uneven matches and everyone kitted out to spam the objective. Oh wait, I forgot the worst part. People have been bitching about having to 'do conquest' but Conquest 96% of the time that I've played it has just been a TDM, no objective completion.

Aaaannnd another Griefer sounds his horn.

Frankly, I didn't notice any difference in the quality of my matches. I was still experiencing a lot of matches where one team rolled the other badly. So, from my perspective, the so-called "Soft" mode only accomplished one thing; that being to restrict my freedom of choice as to how I play the game.

Also, a lot of people disliked the mode; not just meta players. A non-meta player myself, I greatly disliked being unable to choose the game mode because it placed me at a significant disadvantage with my Mechs. Imagine me trying to run my Locusts on Assault! That doesn't work out so well; it's best to run that Mech on Conquest. Similarly, trying to run my sluggish Dires or BLRs on Conquest turned out to be a big problem.

The key to the dissatisfaction, then, is not necessarily that everyone who dislikes the soft mode is a meta player that needs to learn to play other builds; but rather, that most people recognize that certain Mechs have certain specialties, and then build to those specific traits. Those builds necessarily lend themselves to certain game modes, and you can't fault pilots for wanting to run those modes when they are piloting specific Mechs.

That's what the whole controversy was about in a nutshell; player choice! Fortunately, PGI found another way to fix the problem (economic incentive and weekend challenges), and returned our freedom to choose back to us. Kudos to PGI for doing this!

[Vassago Rain]

Koniving, on 13 October 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

Today (or these days anyway).


Back in the day.
2012: (Commander Atlas gives information to team, coordinates efforts, defends base against attack; enemies SKIP easy targets to rush base for maximum payout!)

2013: (Largely uneven weight distribution in teams forces a very dynamic realm of combat; lights use base capture to lure in heavy enemy force and attempts to use it to pick them off.)


There seems to be a huge difference here.
And I'm honestly in favor of the 'old' ways.

The old ways weren't very good, either. Our game modes need total overhauls.

[N0MAD]

I still believe, that the major problems with role/info/objective warfare is just the size of maps.

[Vassago Rain]

N0MAD, on 13 October 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

I still believe, that the major problems with role/info/objective warfare is just the size of maps.

It's a lot of things.

Maps are designed like MOBA maps. You take mid, low, or high. There, you're in the grinder. Some maps, you can see all the way to the enemy base.

Annoying invisible terrain that eats shots.

Most mechs have lots of weapons mounted at knee or waist level, but the maps are made to gimp said guns.

Capping takes forever. It doesn't really give any stimulation to cap, and as a result, cap wins feel hollow.

Etc.

[Sovery_Simple]

Dear OP: Bad pilots would want to fight OTHER bad pilots, and possibly worse pilots. This is so they can win. People that want to fight -better- pilots would be for something that is a bit "off" so that they can fight someone better than them more often, and people wanting an equal foe would want near perfect balance. Sort of follows logically.

Or not, whatevs!

[MauttyKoray]

Nightmare1, on 13 October 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

Aaaannnd another Griefer sounds his horn.

Frankly, I didn't notice any difference in the quality of my matches. I was still experiencing a lot of matches where one team rolled the other badly. So, from my perspective, the so-called "Soft" mode only accomplished one thing; that being to restrict my freedom of choice as to how I play the game.

Also, a lot of people disliked the mode; not just meta players. A non-meta player myself, I greatly disliked being unable to choose the game mode because it placed me at a significant disadvantage with my Mechs. Imagine me trying to run my Locusts on Assault! That doesn't work out so well; it's best to run that Mech on Conquest. Similarly, trying to run my sluggish Dires or BLRs on Conquest turned out to be a big problem.

The key to the dissatisfaction, then, is not necessarily that everyone who dislikes the soft mode is a meta player that needs to learn to play other builds; but rather, that most people recognize that certain Mechs have certain specialties, and then build to those specific traits. Those builds necessarily lend themselves to certain game modes, and you can't fault pilots for wanting to run those modes when they are piloting specific Mechs.

That's what the whole controversy was about in a nutshell; player choice! Fortunately, PGI found another way to fix the problem (economic incentive and weekend challenges), and returned our freedom to choose back to us. Kudos to PGI for doing this!

Sorry but I'm not a griefer. My post didn't say that only meta was bitching but the general player base as a whole (reread my post, I said they bitched about it before giving it time).

Also, I got my Ace of Spades in a locust during a Skirmish match and understand mechs can be played many different ways. This does not excuse someone complaining a mech can't be played on different maps/modes. The topic of the Vindicator and Mad Dog comes to mind when they were heavily bitched about being 'bad' and 'frail' and 'useless' compared to other mechs of the same role/tonnage/weight class by people who were trying to face tank massive amounts of damage in a second line mech.

Having the soft game mode in addition to the random maps would promote all around type mechs with only certain hardcore single use builds be used as it was in cannon Battletech. Reducing alpha meta builds would actually be a positive contribution from this change.

The 'weekend challenges' aren't beneficial to everyone, especially the weekend warriors who make their money on the weekends and support this game (myself and others included). The Friday morning through Tuesday morning events were nice because we could hop on monday though tuesday morning and do them. These 1 day, Fri-Sun events are the equivalent of a giant middle finger to us. While I can't say for other, I personally am catching up on sleep Thu/Fri, work 4pm-~1am on Fri, 8am-1am/2am on Sat, and 8am-12am/1am on Sun. If you start some sort of stupid 'get a better job/education/whatever' bullshit I will ignore your post and report you to the moderators as this is not a 'poor me' post but a reminder that not everyone works 9am-5pm Mon-Fri and that the player base is larger than most of you think it is.

Lights are great for harassing, drawing attention from the main team by poking turrets, or taking down weakened targets by being able to position quickly on all game modes. Assaults are great at defending captured points on Conquest, or alternatively pushing caps/bases. I have no issues running a ~40kph Awesome on Assault or Conquest and filling the role for the combination of the mech, map, and game mode. Your complaint to me is equivalent to that of twitch shooter players bitching that cockpit shots aren't 1 hit kill like a headshot would be.

Whoops, on 13 October 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

Dear OP: Bad pilots would want to fight OTHER bad pilots, and possibly worse pilots. This is so they can win. People that want to fight -better- pilots would be for something that is a bit "off" so that they can fight someone better than them more often, and people wanting an equal foe would want near perfect balance. Sort of follows logically.

Or not, whatevs!

That was my point. From my experience during the ONE day this system was in effect, I had much more closely skilled matches instead of 12-0/1/2 rolls. Bad players were fighting bad players, and so on, more often from what I saw.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 13 October 2014 - 08:47 PM.

[Kilo 40]

Vassago Rain, on 13 October 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

No one wants to capture one red square, let alone five.

and by "no one" you meant you.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

MauttyKoray, on 13 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

words meta lolz blah

I never run meta and still hated it so much I didnt play till it was out so its not just the mythical 1337 masses youre talking about that were upset by it

[Karl Marlow]

Vassago Rain, on 13 October 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

No one wants to capture one red square, let alone five.

Since when has Conquest and assault modes been about anything other than killing the enemy team? Yeah there are capture points on the field. They are there for two reasons. To distract noobs and to end the match wnen the last guy hides and shuts down in a corner of the map.

Edited by ThomasMarik, 13 October 2014 - 10:18 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

ThomasMarik, on 13 October 2014 - 10:17 PM, said:

Since when has Conquest and assault modes been about anything other than killing the enemy team?

Any time I end up in a conquest match.

It becomes a new mode; kill the fast mechs so the other side will win.

Quote

To distract noobs and to end the match wnen the last guy hides and shuts down in a corner of the map.

A valid tactic backed up by Reppu and by Egomane

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 13 October 2014 - 10:20 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

MauttyKoray, on 13 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Well, okay then maybe you should make makes that can play any mode and not just "LOLDPSDAKKAALLDAKILLALPHASPAMHEADSHOTTROLOLOL" mechs then?

Vassago Rain, on 13 October 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

No one wants to capture one red square, let alone five.

MauttyKoray, on 13 October 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

Oh wow, such an original and deep response. I

I urge you to take a long, hard look at the OP in this thread and describe which part is original or deep.

Was it the part I quoted above?

If you want to have a productive conversation, at least describe the merits of both sides in the argument in as positive light as possible, so we can have a healthy, honest debate. This weak parody serves no purpose except further polarizing the community.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 13 October 2014 - 10:24 PM.

[Kjudoon]

MauttyKoray, on 13 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

People just can't be happy with a working system apparently. "Oh Noes! You can't disable playing a game mode!" Well, okay then maybe you should make makes that can play any mode and not just "LOLDPSDAKKAALLDAKILLALPHASPAMHEADSHOTTROLOLOL" mechs then? Maybe stop with the 'meta' crap builds and build versatility into your mech which -GASP- is a realistic thing in Battletech? Oh but wait I crossed the line because I brought up the content source of this game and now I'll get a bunch of hate responses because 'This isn't Battletech its a video game/Mechwarrior, go f yourself.' and what not.

That's good and all, but why consider it Mechwarrior if its not Battletech? In fact, that's part of the problem... You want to hit 100% heat? HAVE FUN MELTING YOUR FLESH OFF. You heard me. 100% heat should have a 66% chance to KILL THE PILOT, with a stacking bonus every overheat.

Back on topic: the soft game mode created some of the best skill comparison matches I have played since re-joining this game at the beginning of 2013. The only real thing I can think of is bad players and comp teams bitched about having to play with and against people of their skill level instead of having higher elo teammates to carry them or other comp team members to give them a challenge and not just let them roll.

But no, lets just go back to having uneven matches and everyone kitted out to spam the objective. Oh wait, I forgot the worst part. People have been bitching about having to 'do conquest' but Conquest 96% of the time that I've played it has just been a TDM, no objective completion.

The conclusion that the mode was better cannot be made when all the time after it's removal was a tournament that forced modes. Once the tourney is done and you've had a week to go through it, then you'll start to see whether or not it was better, which you never really did to begin with anyway.

Edited by Kjudoon, 13 October 2014 - 10:28 PM.

[monk]

I think the reason the new MM failed is because the modes aren't all fun. Very few people want to play the current conquest because of two reasons. 1) it's not fun to sit there on a square for huge chunks of time (for most people). 2) the rewards of conquest were terrible (recently improved....which could help, but the mechanics still make it potentially super boring. Few players want a to just run around in mechs and then stand in squares).

So basically, conquest is a terrible mode right now, but I think a lot of people want a proper mode loosely resembling conquest in some ways. It would not take much to vastly improve conquest and make it a mode that both skirmish loyalists and those who want a bit more than just a straight up fight between two teams. When your strategy is either go left or go right...some of us feel a bit of disappointment.

side note: Koniving, please stop posting videos. They just make me sad. I love the feel and flow of combat in the Dec. 15, 2012 video. I really think that is one of the place MWO suffers right now. There was such a flow to the combat there - it was even possible to change your tactics and strategy in the middle of a fight. Now, you pretty much have to commit to a fight and just let the cards lay where they fall.

Edited by monk, 13 October 2014 - 10:28 PM.

[monk]

Vassago Rain, on 13 October 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

The old ways weren't very good, either. Our game modes need total overhauls.

I think this is sadly extremely accurate so far as game modes go. They feel completely like place holder game modes. Skirmish is fine. You just fight. But the other modes offer very little variance and more annoyance in many cases. Assault makes no sense. Why would you attack another team AND their base unless there was a big incentive to do so? What intelligent officer would tell his troops to attack a fortified position with equal forces unless the circumstance was so dire that it was necessity? As is, Assault make no sense. And when it comes to Conquest, the mode was so unrewarding (fixed in theory) and slow to capture that it wasn't really so much a game of chess as a skirmish where sometimes a light or medium run off to try and salvage a bad match. There needs to be a purpose to what you are capturing and some flow the the battle.

So much more could be done with the game modes and I don't think this would require that much new coding or assets. It's just a matter of it becoming a priority. Hopefully the new CW mode will rectify this to some degree, but regardless, two of the current three modes should be revamped to be better.

Edited by monk, 13 October 2014 - 10:33 PM.

[Kjudoon]

monk, on 13 October 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

I think the reason the new MM failed is because the modes aren't all fun. Very few people want to play the current conquest because of two reasons. 1) it's not fun to sit there on a square for huge chunks of time (for most people). 2) the rewards of conquest were terrible (recently improved....which could help, but the mechanics still make it potentially super boring. Few players want a to just run around in mechs and then stand in squares).

So basically, conquest is a terrible mode right now, but I think a lot of people want a proper mode loosely resembling conquest in some ways. It would not take much to vastly improve conquest and make it a mode that both skirmish loyalists and those who want a bit more than just a straight up fight between two teams. When your strategy is either go left or go right...some of us feel a bit of disappointment.

side note: Koniving, please stop posting videos. They just make me sad. I love the feel and flow of combat in the Dec. 15, 2012 video. I really think that is one of the place MWO suffers right now. There was such a flow to the combat there - it was even possible to change your tactics and strategy in the middle of a fight. Now, you pretty much have to commit to a fight and just let the cards lay where they fall.

IT's not that, it's just that a minority don't care what mode while there are also minorities who can't stand one mode make up the vast majority. They hate that mode with different degrees of severity and often refuse... REFUSE to participat in them, particularly when previously they could avoid them and leave the others in peace.

To use an example, it's like being invited to play poker with friends with the choices being changed randomly every hand between Stud, Texas Holdem and Draw. Out of the 4 players invited, one won't play stud, one hates texas holdem and the last hates draw, but the host loves all 4. Previously, they had allowed only one game played a night and the person who hated that game just didn't come. Everyone was happy.

So now, the host is left with the one guy who won't play hands that are on the game he doesn't like, the one guy who folds every hand in the game he doesn't like at the ante, and the one guy who won't show up. Everyone's good time is ruined because two thirds of the game, is only 2 players.

That is why the soft mode was never going to work and how devastating it was going to be to MWO as a whole because that's the attitudes of the parties involved. Those who don't care are one minority that cannot out influence the rest of the minorities that DO care.

[Hades Trooper]

As someone i was talking with said today,

If you have premium time then u can play whatever mode you wish,

if you are playing free to play, then u get stuck in whatever mode helps the wait que the best.

to enforce this, PGI needs to be willing to lock out a person mechs and also give them a penalty for repeated quitting in the match cause they don't like the mode.

I also agree people need to bring more balanced mechs, i think this can be achieved by making maps where boating of any sort will be harmful to your chances of winning.

If and when PGI allows map selection mode then the game will die

[Duke Nedo]

I have always played all game mode, perhaps not enjoying conquest every time, but really... you youngsters sound like spoiled brats to me sometimes. Perhaps I am just too old, but what happened to "adapting to circumstances" instead of "demanding to be able to dictate the circumstances"? I see the same when lecturing these days at the Uni, the new students to fail miserably at an exam complain that they should have gotten more points and should have passed instead of sucking it up and do it better next time. Ok, that's a far fetched comparison, but I get the same gut feeling when reading this.

The core problem is that the game is in development imo. We (hopefully) want more depth to tactical gameplay, more variation and more fun. The way I see it, conquest is an not-very-successful attempt at that. So, what we should do is to make it better, much better, instead of sulking and only playing deathmatch.

What could make conquest better?

The hotfix: Greatly reduce the time to flip the cap point. 50 secs could be ok to take it down, but the flipping part of it needs to be much faster.

True fix: Imo, conquest modes of game play are better suited when you have respawns, or when you can spawn units using resources. Now, I am not suggesting respawn, really I don't. In the single match mode we have now though, a better type of objectives would imo be utility points that you can capture, and when you own them you get benefits that help you fight the other team. It could be radar stations for intel, comm arrays for enabling air/arty strikes or something along those lines. It's not easy to create truly viable game modes when there is no respawn/resources since you can always win by shooting the other robots and that is ultimately what the teams will try to do. It will be interesting to see how the CW game modes plays out, hopefully they are fun and has the extra depth that is lacking currently.

Anyways, it would be nice if we could somehow turn this into: what can we do to improve the game modes instead. Only playing deathmatch is to step back into closed beta again imo.

[N0MAD]

Hades Trooper, on 13 October 2014 - 10:55 PM, said:

to enforce this, PGI needs to be willing to lock out a person mechs and also give them a penalty for repeated quitting in the match cause they don't like the mode.

What this would do is just simply force people out of the game, many would just quit.

[Slepnir]

MauttyKoray, on 13 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

*SNIP*

Your entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine, guess what NIETHER IS WRONG OR RIGHT,

it's an opinion.

However sweeping broad generalisations is wrong.. in BF3 we could choose map, mode, game size etc.. and it was fantastic. some people *gasp* don't like playing certain styles of game.

I despise skirmish because it is the dumbest game mode in my opinion as there is no objectives or way to make the enemy team choose between multiple ways to win or loose. Until CW gets here so I can have real dynamic objectives I will settle for the place holders that are assault and conquest.

Also just so you know some of us don't use "meta" builds never have and never will. in fact I have several mechs that are actually TT stock loadout configurations for variants of the mechs PGI chose not to put in the game...like the grand dragon 5K on the flame-100% exactly as it is found in the rules weapons, engines etc..wise. guess what I am a good pilot with it and I do well with it because it's a good build and I know how to use it.


As for uneven matches-your experience may vary, I and the people I play with saw NO APREACIABLE DIFFERENCE, save the fact we were stuck in game modes we didn't select and didn't want

[Tincan Nightmare]

Hades Trooper, on 13 October 2014 - 10:55 PM, said:

As someone i was talking with said today,

If you have premium time then u can play whatever mode you wish,

if you are playing free to play, then u get stuck in whatever mode helps the wait que the best.

to enforce this, PGI needs to be willing to lock out a person mechs and also give them a penalty for repeated quitting in the match cause they don't like the mode.

I also agree people need to bring more balanced mechs, i think this can be achieved by making maps where boating of any sort will be harmful to your chances of winning.

If and when PGI allows map selection mode then the game will die

So your business model for PGI and MWO is basically 'pay us real money to be able to play the game how you want, or play for free and have no choice in how or what mode you play.' Do you really think this would be a selling point to bring in new players? If one mode is more popular than the others, PGI needs to look at changing something to make those lesser used modes more attractive. They don't need to start locking out players for not wanting to be forced into a game they don't wish to play.

I personally would like conquest mode more if it was something like capture points in the middle of the map that accumulate points for your team when capped, and each team having a home base on opposite sides that can't be capped but provides no points. Allow destroyed mechs to respawn after a short timer at the home base, and make the only victory conditions either A) team with most points when time expires wins or hitting a set point value before the opposing team. To stop griefing from spawn camping, make the home base a dropship with built in turrets carrying heavy weapons like PPC's and gauss, maybe even the ability to drop arty on enemies that get to close. That would be tons more fun than the current bland conquest mode, that usually devolves into a deathmatch anyway.

edit* damn smily face, was supposed to be a letter b

Edited by Tincan Nightmare, 13 October 2014 - 11:55 PM.