18 replies to this topic

[Colby Boucher]

People have often been saying that MWO has become something other than Battletech. I belive that a great deal of this is due to everyone running massive engines. IS assaults running at the medium / heavy class's standard 64 kph is just a bit too fast to really feel all that "Battletechy". Beyond mech speed, people fire crazy often. It's only when everyone's running around critical heat levels that people begin slowing their RoF, and even then people often just fire untill they shut down. Just look at this pre-MWO concept footage:

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=Wup-agn1neI

Sorry for the stupid copy paste link, I'm on my tablet. But really, PGI, stop pretending that you've always felt that a slow game makes for a game that isn't fun.

One of the big things from this concept that I think we could use is actual view bob. Not just the cockpit model moving with the feet of the mech, but the actual outside view as well. No, it doesn't have to mess up you aim - look at BFBC2 or any other shooter with head bob.

Of course, that doesn't fix mechs moving super fast. In a real-time game, speed is like a second armor. That won't change. But in MWO, it also means better cooling! Yes, large engines use up more tonnage, but with the way engine heat sinks work they also allow you to bring more practical DPS! XL engines are even worse in this regard. Yes, they make side torsos a death sentence, but they also make it pretty damn hard to hit some mechs in the first place. For many mechs, it's go engine cap or go home. Any ideas on giving larger engines more of a downside? Also, another related way to make people think about moving a little slower? Remember that mechs have a cruising speed? Give everyone a major heat dissipation penalty for moving above it. Mechs aren't meant to constantly be moving full-speed. It's taxing on the whole structure.

The point is, part of the reason this doesn't feel like Mechwarrior is that you often feel more like a guy in a suit. PGI stated that this was the reason for the Jump Jet changes. I don't like the low JJ mobility more than the next guy, but I think we need some more bold moves to slow things down a bit.


Update: From what everyone's been saying, this is what I would like to happen:

- Give sub-250 engines 10 heat sinks (Thanks, FupDup)

- Don't give ANYONE true double heat sinks, or make them take up even more crit space, or SOMETHING

- Remove all factors that increase mech agility other than quirks (engine size, pilot skills) (Thanks Galenit)

- Remove all factors that increase "heat pool" to increase the need for actual heat management (change the weird heat sinks, remove those pilot skills)

- Add much more severe heat penalties for running above cruising speed (thanks RedShift and Khobai, I didn't realize there was any sort of penalty as of now, just shows that it needs to be increased)

Edited by Colby Boucher, 15 October 2014 - 01:07 PM.

[FupDup]

The downside of larger engines is larger tonnage.


That being said, the real issue with large engines is that MWO bases agility off of engine size. If agility were pre-set to a specific value for each chassis (use mech's weight as a baseline, modify with quirks as needed), then this wouldn't be an issue.

Also, in terms of lighter mechs, the reason why they need to go full engine is because sub-250 engines need to mount some sinks externally. This is, quite frankly, a stupid rule that serves no worthwhile purpose. All engines of all sizes should simply have their 10 required heatsinks allocated on the inside of them, with their tonnage increased to represent these new sinks (same net tonnage in the end, but you save a lot of critslots).

[WM Wraith]

+1

Never will happen, but I agree 100%.

Mechs feel like small kids running around, jumping. Much would have preferred the feel and pace of the video in the OP.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 15 October 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

The downside of larger engines is larger tonnage.


That being said, the real issue with large engines is that MWO bases agility off of engine size. If agility were pre-set to a specific value for each chassis (use mech's weight as a baseline, modify with quirks as needed), then this wouldn't be an issue.

Also, in terms of lighter mechs, the reason why they need to go full engine is because sub-250 engines need to mount some sinks externally. This is, quite frankly, a stupid rule that serves no worthwhile purpose. All engines of all sizes should simply have their 10 required heatsinks allocated on the inside of them, with their tonnage increased to represent these new sinks (same net tonnage in the end, but you save a lot of critslots).

Along with the sub 250 engines losing true 2.0s.

My issues with MWO are magical convergence and TT stats being out of whack. 3x refire (which means 3x heat, 3x damage) 2x armour (150% weapon damage, with TT damage being dealt instantly, or over 1 second instead of over 10), 1x dissipation (or nerfed when you bring more than 17 DHS)


The game feels very fast and like a shooter. Not a bad shooter, but it certainly doesn't feel like A BattleTech Game.

[Galenit]

Colby Boucher, on 15 October 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

The point is, part of the reason this doesn't feel like mechwarrior is that you often feel more like a guy in a suit. PGI stated that this was the reason for the Jump Jet changes. I think we need a bold move to slow things down a bit.

The speed efficience x2 is the problem.

Gives to much disadvantage for new players and washes other speeds of the classes.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I know this game has been sold as a "Battletech game", but reality , it is more of a Mechwarrior game than a Battletech game.

I personally have no problem with this and I think many people are ok with this as well. I can see why purists would be upset though.

All in all though, I do feel this game walks the line between Battletech and Mechwarrior the closest (even if
It still falls on the Mechwarrior side of the line).

[Khobai]

TTK is the main reason it doesnt feel like battletech. Mechs drop dead in seconds in MWO. Which is uncharacteristic of tabletop. Because in tabletop damage gets distributed more evenly due to random hit locations.

Pinpoint damage weapons are still very much a problem. Specifically the AC/20, gauss, and PPCs.

Edited by Khobai, 15 October 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[Rhaythe]

MeiSooHaityu, on 15 October 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

I know this game has been sold as a "Battletech game", but reality , it is more of a Mechwarrior MechAssault game than a Battletech game.

Edited by Rhaythe, 15 October 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[Glythe]

Khobai, on 15 October 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

TTK is the main reason it doesnt feel like battletech.

This.....

/thread

[Redshift2k5]

Good point regarding cruising speed. Mechs were not supposed to go full speed 100% of the time, so having to manage your throttle a little more would be nice, and the only way to do that is to add penalties for running at 100% speed. Would also make room for some quirks or modules to affect cruising speed and the penalties (probably dissipation)

[Khobai]

Quote

Good point regarding cruising speed. Mechs were not supposed to go full speed 100% of the time, so having to manage your throttle a little more would be nice, and the only way to do that is to add penalties for running at 100% speed.

A lot of mechs in tabletop WERE designed to go full speed every turn. The difference is tabletop had a penalty for doing so.

I agree there should be more penalties for going 100% throttle. Right now you get +2 heat for being at 100% throttle but thats barely even noticeable. The heat penalty should be increased.

Edited by Khobai, 15 October 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Rhaythe, on 15 October 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

Lol, I get what your saying, but I have played a lot of Mechwarrior. Games like Mechwarrior 2 let you get away with everything. Mechwarrior 2: mercs let you put weapons anywhere. Don't like LRMs in the arms of a Catapult, screw it, just put them in the torso lol.

Even with pacing, the mechs all seemed to move fairly quick. Idk, this feels like a Mechwarrior game trying to follow the rules a bit closer.

Again, I don't share the OPs position, but I do understand it.

[gregsolidus]

MWO never was Battletech and head bob and half throttling is kinda a shallow interpretation of Battletech itself. MWO needs wider, less "game-y" battlefields, it needs AI vehicles, it needs an actual metagame beyond grinding C Bills. That and we can't even have cockpit glass without people complaining of motion sickness, head bob would be kinda out of the question and wouldn't the gyroscope deal with that to begin with?

Edited by gregsolidus, 15 October 2014 - 11:35 AM.

[Elizander]

The pace of the game is alright for me in the solo queue. Stuff might die faster again once they fix laser hitreg (if your ping is high, stop using lasers. Not sure if high ping targets also reduce your laser damage).

[VagGR]

i cant say it feels just like another shooter...but some times it doesnt feel like a "battletech game". yes it tries to stay close to some TT rules but it is a fact that the pace is just too fast. apart from the modified armor/reload values, as others have said you dont really have to manage anything..at least not by a considerable degree...there is no significant heat managment, yes some times you have to be careful but most of the times is shoot till you overheat, power back up and shoot again. you dont really have to manage your speed either, yes soemtimes you slow down to turn tighter or to stay behind a slower mech but most of the times is just full speed.

I'd love to see heat penalties (maybe not as strict as in TT) and other modifiers like more heat when going 100% throttle. It will forc players to control their pace and make the game more tactical. you'll still be able to go crazy if you want but here will be a risk...and everyone will be happy...or not

Edited by VagGR, 15 October 2014 - 11:52 AM.

[Colby Boucher]

Khobai, on 15 October 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

TTK is the main reason it doesnt feel like battletech. Mechs drop dead in seconds in MWO. Which is uncharacteristic of tabletop. Because in tabletop damage gets distributed more evenly due to random hit locations.

Pinpoint damage weapons are still very much a problem. Specifically the AC/20, gauss, and PPCs.

I agree that pinpoint damage is an ongoing issue, but I think that it's an issue we will have to continue to deal with unless we make IS autocannons fire the same way that clan ACs fire. Funny to remember that MWO essentially has autocannons and lasers backwards from their tabletop counterparts. I like the idea as far as feel and "believability" is concerned, because pinpoint damage lasers make no sense physics wise, but seriously, it's silly that the higher damage weapons (autocannons) also focus damage better. Whoever thought that was a good decision doesn't have much of a brain.

[Burktross]

Colby Boucher, on 15 October 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

One of the big things from this concept that I think we could use is actual view bob. Not just the cockpit model moving with the feet of the mech, but the actual outside view as well. No, it doesn't have to mess up you aim - look at BFBC2 or any other shooter with head bob.

All my yes, but your other suggestions.... a bit too much I think. Perhaps increasing time it takes to fire weapons again, and at the cost of speed, enhanced agility (actually be able to maneuver)

[Alistair Winter]

I would like to see a slower pace in this game, but that involves using the n-word.

Nerfing.

And every time PGI tries to do something like that, people are dropping out of the sky like paratroopers to stop the madness. The forums are full of comments like "Soon we'll be armed with water balloons and wiffle bats!" and "Good thing there's no censorship in the game chat, because foul language is the only weapon we have left, lololol."

Just because everyone has DHS, Endo and XL engines doesn't mean the game needs to play like Unreal Tournament. I would really like to see heat as a much bigger factor for most weapons, and a dramatic change in ROF for weapons with little heat, like gauss.

[Cat-in-Exile]

Khobai, on 15 October 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

TTK is the main reason it doesnt feel like battletech. Mechs drop dead in seconds in MWO. Which is uncharacteristic of tabletop.

Each turn in tabletop is 10 seconds of in game time, so in that sense, it actually is charactetistic. Mechs do drop in seconds.