333 replies to this topic

[Combat Loss Grouping]

Bront, on 16 October 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

You see, this I find a bit debatable, as someone who has purchased it. It does require you know you'll have the time to play for the period you buy though.

I'll grant this. I should have been more specific. I, personally, don't feel like Premium is worth it if I am only going to actually get 6 hours of play out of every 24 hours of Premium (and that's a generous assumption for me, I can't spend half a day just playing games or anything similar).

Now if you could buy, say, 6 hours of premium time that only counted down while logged in, and was priced the same as the current '1 day' of Premium? Yeah, I would be all over that. Just the knowledge that my Premium time is 'wasted' if I don't pull an all-nighter on a weekend or something puts it in 'not going to bother' territory for me.

And let's not even get into $30 non-champion non-hero single-variant piles of pixels.

[Cyberiad]

I use premium mechs with (30% c-bill boost) and have premium time activated but the c-bill earnings are still so low that the game is not really enjoyable and feels like a grind-fest. I've played a lot since my premium time from the clan pack was activated but I have hardly earned any c-bills since then. Right now there is really no motivation to play matches other than with a group since the c-bill earnings are so low. Other people don't play either for the same reason. A few people suicide grind (not going to name them) to get better c-bill earnings. They treat it (suicide grinding, intentionally playing badly so they get killed quickly so they can drop in another trial mech) like AFK mining in Eve Online as something they can do casually while doing other stuff like watching TV shows.

[Revis Volek]

Torgun, on 16 October 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

I have a feeling you would not enjoy playing with only paying players, because then you'd have a lot less players online, with the subsequent longer waiting times to get into matches. Small pvp games like MWO need free players, or else it would not be able to keep running. That's why I always facepalm whenever a whale tells free players to STFU and be grateful to them. Because what they fail to see is they should also be grateful free players exist. It's a clear situation of symbiosis, where if when part is gone the game would die.

On topic: CBill payouts are bad, revert the ridiculous nerf from when we went from 8 vs 8 to 12 vs 12.

Did i say anywhere that they were less important? Or even that i did not want them? They are content, it was already stated. Sorry but that is the sad truth...whales need F2P players as much as they need us. Even if they dont like it....

I still have no idea where you get off telling what i would or would not like that's besides the point entirely anyway but i never said i didn't WANT them here. All i stated was that im sure most of them dont spend ANY money on this game. You may have a differing opinion, such is life. You are putting words in my mouth....after you quoted me nonetheless.

And did you really call 12 v 12 a nerf? lol

Edited by DarthRevis, 16 October 2014 - 12:21 PM.

[Cyberiad]

A few have even refused group invites because they earn more c-bills from suicide grinding than in a group drop, even if we win every match.

[Revis Volek]

Combat Loss Grouping, on 16 October 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

I'll grant this. I should have been more specific. I, personally, don't feel like Premium is worth it if I am only going to actually get 6 hours of play out of every 24 hours of Premium (and that's a generous assumption for me, I can't spend half a day just playing games or anything similar).

Now if you could buy, say, 6 hours of premium time that only counted down while logged in, and was priced the same as the current '1 day' of Premium? Yeah, I would be all over that. Just the knowledge that my Premium time is 'wasted' if I don't pull an all-nighter on a weekend or something puts it in 'not going to bother' territory for me.

And let's not even get into $30 non-champion non-hero single-variant piles of pixels.

There model is very similar to other games....unfortunately. Have you ever tried buying Premium time on a night you know you will also play the next night? Say a Friday and Saturday? Then you have 24 hours over 2 nights to play.

[topgun505]

Now, do that math under the assumption that you use two 40,000 cbill consumables each game.

[CtrlAltWheee]

Warframe is another f2p model. They practically feed players new stuff and then everyone buys the equivalent of a mechbay.

Pretty sure it's a very deliberate business decision. Seems to be working.

[Bront]

Silicon Life, on 16 October 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

A few have even refused group invites because they earn more c-bills from suicide grinding than in a group drop, even if we win every match.

I can earn CBills 2-3 times faster in solo dropping vs the group queue, simply because I can drop out and drop again when I die (No suiciding involved) and I don't need to wait for anyone else. It's annoying.

topgun505, on 16 October 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Now, do that math under the assumption that you use two 40,000 cbill consumables each game.

if I assumed 100,000 CBills, multiply all time and match numbers involved there by 5.

[Combat Loss Grouping]

Silicon Life, on 16 October 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

A few have even refused group invites because they earn more c-bills from suicide grinding than in a group drop, even if we win every match.

Oh lord, don't tempt me to try this.

Then again my KDR is already something like 0.34, hrmm....

[Bront]

Combat Loss Grouping, on 16 October 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

Oh lord, don't tempt me to try this.

Then again my KDR is already something like 0.34, hrmm....

It'll go up in the solo queue. I think mine is double what it is in the group queue (where it's finally bottomed out around .7)

[Tynan]

He's right about this. Like a lot of people (and, I imagine, a lot of people in this thread) it doesn't impact me much personally because I've got the modules I need, I've got a substantial number of mechs mastered and have enough options to never get bored, with enough C-Bills in the bank to buy something new on the off chance I do.

The problem isn't C-Bill earnings for dedicated players, it's the discouraging effect it has on new players. I've tried to get numerous people playing this game but telling people they need to invest 40+ hours just to be useful, and all in the same mech (without including time spent playing different mechs to see what you like) is huge barrier to entry.

Also, I completely agree that about his point that PGI is very likely to regain any lost revenue through increased mechbay and possibly camo sales, as people will need places to house those mechs bought with CBills, on top of the advantage of a larger user base.

Basically, the first twenty hours or so of this game are just punishing, and it's like a novel with bad beginning--it's going to put people off, and hurt you in the long run. And that hurts the rest of us in the form of a smaller playerbase.

[Burktross]

Silicon Life, on 16 October 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

I use premium mechs with (30% c-bill boost) and have premium time activated but the c-bill earnings are still so low that the game is not really enjoyable and feels like a grind-fest.

Couldn't agree more.
Less cbill grinding.
More mechbays bought.

Delicious-- everyone wins.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ultimatum X, on 16 October 2014 - 06:08 AM, said:

The problem is that you believe you need to buy 12 clan mechs all with cbills.

Do you really need 12 or do you want 12.


Sometimes we have to reign in our desires, and focus on what we really want or even better what we actually need.

Ok to jump in on Glythe's side here, the point of this game is to have fun. Some people only NEED 1 mech to have fun, others, like myself, NEED dozens or they aren't have fun. If my DESIRE is to have fun, then I NEED to be able to acquire and outfit new mechs at a very rapid pace.

Basically everyone's needs and desires are different. What most of us are saying is that the current pace isn't quite at the level were we are having fun. If I am not playing mastering a new mech chassis every few weeks , I get terribly bored. My fun in the game is taking vanilla build chassis and spending hours and hours tweaking and testing them out till I find the perfect builds and master them and then move on to the next. I mean I do have a few "go to" mechs I always play but 75% of my time I want to be playing new mechs.

Also look at my currently situaton. I have around 34 million C-bills and if I focus on what I really want as you recommend, that would be a trio of Warhawks coming up here in another month and the a Trio of Mad Dogs in Dec. Buying and outfitting those mechs alone will cost me 80-90 million C-bills. I also want/need about 3-5 weapons modules that I can swap out on various builds. That is another 15 million so I am in need of over 100 million C-bills just to get the bare basics of what I am looking forward to. I earn roughly 15 million C-bills a week at most which means I will barely be able to afford just that. However next week I get a free Centurion and Atlas which I won't be able to master unless I buy two additional Centurions and Atlases plus I will also have to come up with the C-bills to upgrade all these mechs. What is that? Another 40 million or so? Then I will be getting my King Crab about the same time as the Mad Dog Hits so 2 more variants needed there at what 15 million each to buy and outfit......oh and I bought the Clan Wave 2 pack so I am going to have to invest alot of C-bills getting those bad boys modified as well. Wow how many hundreds of millions C-bills will I need with the next 8-10 weeks?? Also that is not even touching the dozens of other mechs I want to purchase and try out.

So instead of enjoying all my new mechs, I will be playing the grind game over and over and over, getting more bored by the day and this is just to get myself caught up through december.

[Revis Volek]

Viktor Drake, on 16 October 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Also look at my currently situaton. I have around 34 million C-bills and if I focus on what I really want as you recommend, that would be a trio of Warhawks coming up here in another month and the a Trio of Mad Dogs in Dec. Buying and outfitting those mechs alone will cost me 80-90 million C-bills. I also want/need about 3-5 weapons modules that I can swap out on various builds. That is another 15 million so I am in need of over 100 million C-bills just to get the bare basics of what I am looking forward to.

No offense man but that is in NO WAY the BARE BASICS...that's top mechs in the game right now fully outfitted with modules. That is END GAME EQUIPMENT i dont understand how you dont see this. Is there ANY other game out there where you can be lvl 60, have the best stuff and be ready to take on the toughest PvP the game has to offer? If you find me ONE game where you can do it faster then 40 hours without paying any REAL MONEY please show me.

You are confusing wants with need like Ultimatum X has already stated....i for one would have been fine with just the SCR but the pokemon craze got to me and now i gotta catch em all!

Edited by DarthRevis, 16 October 2014 - 01:58 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

So I'm about to make a lengthy post about the comparison between TF2's 'economy' and MWO's economy.

I suggest people look at this page, as it goes in-depth as to how the item drop system works in TF2: https://wiki.teamfor....com/wiki/Drops

For this argument, I'm assuming 'weapon drops' from TF2 are equivalent to using C-Bills to purchase a Mech.
In TF2, after playing long enough, I will get a drop. If it is something I don't have, I can use it immediately without any need to customize it. If it is a duplicate, I can either trade it away or use it in crafting (which is like selling it for less than its original value).

In MWO, most of the mechs require extra investment outside the initial purchase and this is my primary problem with the economy in this game as the pricing scheme was designed around this problem. The amount of time it takes to actually build up a mech is much more on average than it takes to earn a non-duplicate weapon (granted it may not be the one you want) in TF2 which makes the buying of a mech A LOT less satisfying than it should be, especially for those mechs that cost upwards of $15. This game outright taxes customization which is a primary feature of the game, after all how many of us have spent as much time playing this game as we have in the mechlab or theorycrafting using some sort of program (SSW, Smurfy's, or otherwise)? This is a major flaw with the current model as it is self-defeating.

So now let's look at time spent getting items and a certain issue with that. The problem is simple, skill is a factor in how fast you earn content. This is another reason that the NPE is sooooo bad is because you have people who are veterans who regard the current grind as ok are completely unaware or unable to remember what it was like to be new and how harmful a skill-based economy can be to the time spent to gain access to content. TF2 did incredibly well here, you are limited to X many drops per week, but you get on average, a drop an hour. No skill involved so veteran or newbie, you get access to content at around the same pace. The best part in my mind with regards to TF2 is the increased number of drops per week if you spent a week not playing the game for whatever reason. This allows those who were unable to play one week due to RL, to make up for the missed opportunity.

Now someone ironically brought up Pokemon saying this game isn't like Pokemon (Joseph Mallen I think it was). So let's go ahead and look more in depth at that.

• We currently have more variants (I call them models) than there were Pokemon in Generation I.
  
• You can go through a game of Pokemon without ever using/capturing all the Pokemon.
  
• Not all Pokemon are equal, in fact some are down right worthless (SDR-5V I'm staring at you)

Considering all the above, Pokemon and MWO have a lot more in common. The question is, should free players pretty much be paywalled from becoming collectors, which unless cadet bonuses increase with the amount of content, this goal becomes ever more distant for those new 'free' players. This is what that specific debate is over, whether being a collector is a convenience or a feature, and imo, it is definitely a feature.

This is not including the fact you can be a competitive player with just 4 mechs in your garage which leads to more issues with people willing to drop money for new mechs, let alone $20 for one. This is a game design problem that really does hurt the sale of new mechs, at least if the current game population consisted more of players who weren't BT fans before playing the game.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 16 October 2014 - 02:10 PM.

[ollo]

FupDup, on 15 October 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

The Paulconomy™ knows no mercy, no respite.

Paulconomy bases on ppl who don't have a job and dedicate all spare time to MWO. I once did the math (guesstimate& AFAIR), and it would take a semi-casual player several years to buy all stuff without and with premium time. I dumped founder, phoenix, clan wave 1 & 2 into this game and still feel like i have to grind too much. Oh, top tier each of course.

I think they need to bump premium awards to 100 instead of 50% at least, and for retaining casuals they need to increase non-premium earnings, too.Especially new players need to keep playing and for this they need to have fun playing (equals mastering mechs, loving mechs, later buying mechbays, buying camo etc.).

Edited by ollo, 16 October 2014 - 02:38 PM.

[Hotice]

I personally consider grinding as part of fun to play a game. Also, the game company needs to make money to keep going. Since the game is free, I usually spent at least $15 a month on it anyway to help out. I like the game enough. Even with a job that pays $7.25 an hour, it will only take 7 hours at most to pay for the 3 mechs and everything else. I would not spend 73 hours in game grinding unless I really want to. Consider the dev team needs to work 8 hours a day to keep game running. We can at least spend a bit of money and support them a bit. Don't be too cheap. Nobody really forced you to grind 70 hours for anything....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotice, on 16 October 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

I personally consider grinding as part of fun to play a game.

Its not a grind if you are having fun. That's what we like to call progression.

[Alex Morgaine]

Eh, I played wow back in vanilla, it took only 6 months to get to end game content with people rushing it in 2-4 weeks. 2 years assuming no more mechs added won't kill me any. I think personally, people are to instant gratification minded. Then there's eve offline, where getting skilled in a decent ship is literally up to our more then a year depending on how big you want to fly, plus perma-loss on "death" of your ship. I think cbill gains are low, but I also want a form of R&R/party salvage to supplement the current winnings(our contract if you want to rp it up a lil heh)

TL;DR: money's ok, needs a (workable) form of R&R and material rewards to supplement straight cash, or more cash rewards plus R&R which we tried and didn't like, so it got canned.

[Troutmonkey]

Alistair Winter, on 16 October 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:

Want more players? Hand over some rewards, because that's how gaming works.

And yet, if you give everything to the player up front then they will have nothing left to earn and stop playing.
The "grind" to earn enough to get that next XL engine or next mech, or to level up mech's has been a reasonable drive to play more matches.