333 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

DarthRevis, on 16 October 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

No offense man but that is in NO WAY the BARE BASICS...that's top mechs in the game right now fully outfitted with modules. That is END GAME EQUIPMENT i dont understand how you dont see this. Is there ANY other game out there where you can be lvl 60, have the best stuff and be ready to take on the toughest PvP the game has to offer? If you find me ONE game where you can do it faster then 40 hours without paying any REAL MONEY please show me.

You are confusing wants with need like Ultimatum X has already stated....i for one would have been fine with just the SCR but the pokemon craze got to me and now i gotta catch em all!

I don't see this because I have about 100+ more variants I don't currently own. To me end game is what I have played virtually all mechs in the game and have collected everything I want to collect. I mean I have been playing since closed beta. What I have right now, which is less than 1/4 of the mechs in the game took me like 2 years to accumulate (If you consider open beta).

Even if I just take the mechs I own now and outfit them each with a full set of unique modules, I would need almost 500 million C-bills. I would need more like 1 billion C-bills just to be able to try out ALL the mechs I am interested in trying out and experimenting with. At 140k average earnings per match, yeah not going to happen especially not with new mechs coming out every month. I mean what is the point of adding 2 new mechs a month if no one has the C-bills to buy them? Now maybe it wouldn't be so bad if you didn't have to buy 3 of fricken everything in order to master out the ONE variant you really want but since that is not the case, it takes a ridiculous amount of C-bills just to be able to use one variant to its fullest extent and the only way to even remote afford modules is if you go through the trouble to inconveniently swap them each time you want to play a different mech .

So to kind of throw it back at you, I just don't understand how you don't see that I haven't even come close to reaching end game not until I have had the opportunity to at least own and play every mech I want to own and play. I mean how do I even know what I like best until I actually own and master all the variants?

One thing to keep in mind. End game has different meaning to different people and each game has its own end game. I don't consider just owning a few good mech that are competitive in any match they play in to be part of the end game in MWO simply because you can pretty much pick any one mech, max it out and play competitively. That is not the end of this game nor even the goal. Collecting mechs, building them, testing them and then choosing the absolute best ones to compete with, that is the end game and right now I am about a billion C-bills shy of even getting close to that.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 16 October 2014 - 03:50 PM.

[Combat Loss Grouping]

Troutmonkey, on 16 October 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

And yet, if you give everything to the player up front then they will have nothing left to earn and stop playing.
The "grind" to earn enough to get that next XL engine or next mech, or to level up mech's has been a reasonable drive to play more matches.

It's probably a good thing he wasn't talking about 'giving everything up front' then.

So, do you have anything constructive to add to the discussion?

[Nick Makiaveli]

"Only one has modules"? I thought you said you would share modules? Oh, and this is all for a FTP player, so umm well, yeah. What did you expect?

All F2P games are a grind, otherwise they are gone because there is no real reason to spend cash....

[Flak Kannon]

These are fair points.

I remember the time before the economy nerf. I ran Premium Time, I used my Ilya, I won a match, I did well..(3-4 kills), and I'd clearn $350,000cbills..whoah !!

Three matches good matches and I'd earned $1,000,000 cbills.

On a loss, it would be around $180,000 cbills..

On average, 10 minute match average, I was earning 1.5 million cbills/hour. That was too high for PGI's business model. And never forget... this IS a business.



I do pay for certain Hero mechs occasionally, Mechbays ( that last 50% off sale was awesome!), single shot camo at 75 MC a pop on all 110 Inner Sphere mechs I own, and always run Premium time. That's all I buy. No cockpit items, very few colors, nothing I can buy with cbills.

I do spend $50 every 3 months or so on MC.

I like this game enough to give PGI $15/month to keep the servers up..

More people should also in my opinion.

I respect that your opinion my differ.

Enjoi!

Edited by Flak Kannon, 16 October 2014 - 04:41 PM.

[p4r4g0n]

Utilyan, on 16 October 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Put it this way folks ,maybe a light will go off......lets lower the C-bill reward to 1 cbill per match. I got 4 empty mechbays. When do you expect this guy to put up money for a new mechbay?

In 68 million matches. The "whales" will always dish out cash for convenience that's a given. But the free player he ain't gonna spend a dime unless he absolutely has to.

Lets flip this. You get 10 million c-bills a match, bam you got mech you want, now you got equipment you want, now you got your modules..Now your running the mech you wanted to run.....oh whoa what is this....strange feeling........FUN WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN!?

Guess what happens to those 4 empty mech bays? they get filled. guess who needs more mech bays? Better then NEED.....Guess who WANTS more mechbays?
-snip-

As someone who started as a F2P player and has limited spending pending CW to buying 3000 MC for mechbays (primarily), your projected outcome if players earn 10 million C-Bills a match is flawed.

Given that rate of earnings (which is almost equivalent to free mechs), F2P players will just buy / sell mechs constantly as and when they want to play them. At best, F2P players would get 1 - 3 extra mechbays to churn grind other mechs without having to sell and re-purchase their "go to" mechs.

IMO your example only serves to confirm that there is an equilibrium point somewhere in between the two extremes described where player satisfaction is balanced with revenue generation. PGI has presumably used its data to determine what it thinks is that equilibrium point, whether you agree with it depends on each individual players' preferences and RL constraints.

Combat Loss Grouping, on 16 October 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

I'll grant this. I should have been more specific. I, personally, don't feel like Premium is worth it if I am only going to actually get 6 hours of play out of every 24 hours of Premium (and that's a generous assumption for me, I can't spend half a day just playing games or anything similar).

-snip-

This is quite a common feeling and to be fair I've shared the same sentiment myself from time to time. However, when you consider that a single day's PT costs around US$1 (depending on MC package), getting 2-3 hours (of enhanced C-Bills and XP at that price doesn't seem like a hell of lot.


Having said that, I do believe that at the very least PGI should include a C-Bill bonus in the daily double bonus. Limiting this to 4 mechs sounds reasonable as on average it would take something like 8 matches (approx. 1 hr) to get the 4 wins. This would alleviate the grind somewhat for those that have limited playing time while avoiding an overall boost to C-Bill earnings.

Edited by p4r4g0n, 16 October 2014 - 09:46 PM.

[Chuanhao]

Nobody likes grinding. But how can we circumvent it?

1. Be selective. Dont expect to Elite every chassis. There's two a month for the next half a year.

2. Some modules are better than others. Share them around. Again dont expect to have all weapon modules.

3. Sell your unused mechs. I find Clan mechs particularly good for this. The only differentiator between mechs is the centre torso. For mechs like summoner? You just need to get to level 2 for all three mechs assuming u have no other Heavy. Then just bring one to level 3. Retain the omnipods from all three mechs, but sell the other two variants. U get 8M cbills rightaway.

** The key question should be what is the minimal needed for new players to get into the groove. U will certainly want to at least allow them to have a good chance at mastering one variantn of a chassis. My suggestion would be for the cadet.bonus to be enough to get three variants of a medium chassis with at least one with endo and XL engine. That I feel is the sweet spot. I remember feeling very happy about using my cadet bonus to buy a AWS 8Q. Only to realise that I need another 1.5M for DHS. painful to grind in a 8Q if u know what i mean. That was in the UI 1.0 era.

I only play one hour a day on weekdays. 2 hrs on weekends. I have attained level 3 for at least 3 variants of AWS, SHD, Cataphract, Atlas. Currently leveling WHK, my only cash purchase as I wanted the new custom Atlas. I also have the pretty Baby to make a wee bit more cbills. I also only have 2 advanced zoom, one each of seismic, decay, radar, gyros, and sensors. I know I cannot afford to grind as much, nor have too much cash. So I make do with what I can and enjoy the game.

I would love to try all chassis. But its going to very difficult to elite all of them. So I manage my own expectations and proceed from there. Even for infinity blade. Its not free to play, yet the grind to get the infinity blade itself is impossible to me. At least I can always get DireWolf in MWO and for free too!

Edited by Chuanhao, 16 October 2014 - 06:41 PM.

[Lord de Seis]

I play usually 3-4 hours a night and 2 million c-bills a night minimum is no problem with premium time, which I am now using because you can activate in monthly chunks. While I wouldn't mind seeing a bit of a tweek to cbill earning I understand the reality of the situation, the game needs to be funded and PGI has to encourage people to spend.

Edited by Lord de Seis, 16 October 2014 - 07:32 PM.

[Rhaegor]

Find better ways to make people spend. If they want this game to be successful on Steam, they need to let people play mechs they like.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I also want to remind everyone that the whole reason PGI has never implemented a way to save configurations was to give us incentive to buy duplicate models (I heard this was hinted at or outright stated during the town hall, so correct me if Im wrong).
With the current MC and C-Bill costs, this is an outrageous expectation.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

There are potential positives to grinding. The more people on grinding cbills & exp, the more options the matchmaker has to draw upon. This could translate to more even matches and better ELO balancing. It might also translate to lesser wait times inbetween games.

[Bront]

I Zeratul I, on 16 October 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

There are potential positives to grinding. The more people on grinding cbills & exp, the more options the matchmaker has to draw upon. This could translate to more even matches and better ELO balancing. It might also translate to lesser wait times inbetween games.

People aren't going to stop playing once they're done grinding for their new mech. The'll start on their next mech, or enjoy playing their current mech (or both).

[Dauphni]

Almond Brown, on 16 October 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

Any new Cadet who finishes their 25 Matches, and has a 8mill(+) bank has already seen all the Cool Toys that the BIG boys and gals have. Sure they want them and now. Then they do some maths and they may think "wow, need lots and lots more C-Bills" but I don't make more 100k+ per average Match. While true, that does not change the fact that in ALL F2P models there is 2(3) avenues to the toy box, Play, Pay or a mix.

On the one hand, 8 million is quite good to start off with and will let you buy a decent mech almost right away. But you're also right that the money required after that to get that mech to its full potential is pretty staggering, especially for new players. I consider myself a decent but not great player, and while I can certainly pull 100k+ average per match NOW, I also remember that when I was just getting started, my average was MUCH lower. That was almost two years ago, and conditions have changed since then, but back in my first couple of weeks I was getting about 40k on average I think, and I doubt it's going to be much different for new players these days. When you're earning that little, because you're still learning the game, premium time has even less of an effect. And I think that when you're talking about the grind, you have to consider how it affects new players more than it does veterans. Sure, filling up your stables might take just about forever, but what about all the people who never get started at all because getting their first few mechs takes too long?

[DaZur]

MW:O is by design structured to create enough grind friction to entice players to invest in both a premium mech and premium time, ultimately netting a 80% bump to net gains...

Point is the grind is supposed to be arduous... Otherwise it's far too easy for freeloaders to milk the game. Remember... baring the value of time, a player ultimately can gain access to every non-premium content in the game if they are patient enough.

So sorry OP... While I would not begrudge a compensatory raise in net profit... The game is largely working as intended for the non-premium players.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Chuanhao, on 16 October 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

Nobody likes grinding. But how can we circumvent it?

1. Be selective. Dont expect to Elite every chassis. There's two a month for the next half a year.

2. Some modules are better than others. Share them around. Again dont expect to have all weapon modules.

3. Sell your unused mechs. I find Clan mechs particularly good for this. The only differentiator between mechs is the centre torso. For mechs like summoner? You just need to get to level 2 for all three mechs assuming u have no other Heavy. Then just bring one to level 3. Retain the omnipods from all three mechs, but sell the other two variants. U get 8M cbills rightaway.

** The key question should be what is the minimal needed for new players to get into the groove. U will certainly want to at least allow them to have a good chance at mastering one variantn of a chassis. My suggestion would be for the cadet.bonus to be enough to get three variants of a medium chassis with at least one with endo and XL engine. That I feel is the sweet spot. I remember feeling very happy about using my cadet bonus to buy a AWS 8Q. Only to realise that I need another 1.5M for DHS. painful to grind in a 8Q if u know what i mean. That was in the UI 1.0 era.

I only play one hour a day on weekdays. 2 hrs on weekends. I have attained level 3 for at least 3 variants of AWS, SHD, Cataphract, Atlas. Currently leveling WHK, my only cash purchase as I wanted the new custom Atlas. I also have the pretty Baby to make a wee bit more cbills. I also only have 2 advanced zoom, one each of seismic, decay, radar, gyros, and sensors. I know I cannot afford to grind as much, nor have too much cash. So I make do with what I can and enjoy the game.

I would love to try all chassis. But its going to very difficult to elite all of them. So I manage my own expectations and proceed from there. Even for infinity blade. Its not free to play, yet the grind to get the infinity blade itself is impossible to me. At least I can always get DireWolf in MWO and for free too!

But why should this be the case? We have around 180+ mech variants in the game and roughly 6-10 new variants coming out every month. Why should we have to struggle to purchase and fully outfit with modules only a few of them. Even if they doubled the rewards, it would take me over 2 years at my current pace to be able to afford to try out all the current mechs in game, let alone keep pace with the new ones coming or honestly outfit the ones I decided I wanted to keep.

Bront, on 16 October 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

People aren't going to stop playing once they're done grinding for their new mech. The'll start on their next mech, or enjoy playing their current mech (or both).

My point exactly. I own 41 different mech variants. Of those 41 variants, I usually only play around 10 of them on a regular basis, the rest I play just to mix it up occassionally. Other than that, I am always working on a new mech and working perfect builds on them. Any I end up really liking I keep. However, I can't earn C-bills fast enough to keep buying those new mechs so I end up getting bored with the game. With 180+ chassis currently and 27 new one confirmed on the way, even if rewards were much higher, I wouldn't run out of things to do any time soon. Hell I would actually probably be more into the game because I would feel more like I was progressing and less like I was grinding.

DaZur, on 17 October 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

MW:O is by design structured to create enough grind friction to entice players to invest in both a premium mech and premium time, ultimately netting a 80% bump to net gains...

Point is the grind is supposed to be arduous... Otherwise it's far too easy for freeloaders to milk the game. Remember... baring the value of time, a player ultimately can gain access to every non-premium content in the game if they are patient enough.

So sorry OP... While I would not begrudge a compensatory raise in net profit... The game is largely working as intended for the non-premium players.

While this is true and I fully agree that this mechanism needs to be in place to keep the game profitable and moving forward but there is such a thing as too much grind which tends to push players away rather than provide incentive to play. Basically if people get bored, they will find something less boring and I think MWO is running very, very close to the line if not a little over it at the moment. This is why I think about a 50% increase in match rewards really needs to be considered.

[Mothykins]

On topic: the new Quirk System encourages keeping and Using moire Chassis than before.

JozefK, on 17 October 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

So let's see at what Russ has written as a main reason for quirks:

By focusing the quirks per variant in a specific way we feel we can achieve a higher degree of success with the quirks while increasing the variety of mechs on the battlefield.

From the gameplay point of view, number of different mech configurations will stay the same (at best). You are not getting any new mech configrations with the introduction of quirks. There will be more mech variants in use that's for sure.

For the player it means that instead of experimenting with a single purchased mech he will have to purchase several mechs. SIngle mech is becoming less variable.

Pretty much, you can't do every possible build well with one Chassis, and are encouraged to diversify now. This is further encouragment to get more Chassis; not that, you know, making more Heros and chassis wasn't already an indication that the developers wanted you to own lots of Mechs.

[Torgun]

DarthRevis, on 16 October 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Did i say anywhere that they were less important? Or even that i did not want them? They are content, it was already stated. Sorry but that is the sad truth...whales need F2P players as much as they need us. Even if they dont like it....

I still have no idea where you get off telling what i would or would not like that's besides the point entirely anyway but i never said i didn't WANT them here. All i stated was that im sure most of them dont spend ANY money on this game. You may have a differing opinion, such is life. You are putting words in my mouth....after you quoted me nonetheless.

And did you really call 12 v 12 a nerf? lol

Well you were pointing out how free players aren't necessarily a source of income for the devs, when even you admit that free players are essential for this game to exist. Don't you see the contradiction? Because without free players MWO would quickly die due to lack of players, and then would bring in a grand total of zero in income.

12 vs 12 brought by a CBill earning nerf, you must have missed how rewards were cut by about 30% in total because Paul thought we made too much and thus started the great MWO depression we currently live in. Just look it up, it's not an opinion, it's a fact.

[Joseph Mallan]

Torgun, on 17 October 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Well you were pointing out how free players aren't necessarily a source of income for the devs, when even you admit that free players are essential for this game to exist. Don't you see the contradiction? Because without free players MWO would quickly die due to lack of players, and then would bring in a grand total of zero in income.

12 vs 12 brought by a CBill earning nerf, you must have missed how rewards were cut by about 30% in total because Paul thought we made too much and thus started the great MWO depression we currently live in. Just look it up, it's not an opinion, it's a fact.

If you think this is a Depression You missed the real one back in Closed Beta!

[Torgun]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 October 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

If you think this is a Depression You missed the real one back in Closed Beta!

Either way, grind is awful even for me with a decent mech collection, for new players it would be totally crap. They're clearly over-doing it if they actually want to attract new players instead of scare them away to other more rewarding games that doesn't require you to either pay early to enjoy the game or handle this game as a full-time job to feel you're getting anywhere.

[Brody319]

I think the cadet bonus is kinda nullified when you have a new player. They are likely to buy a mech that wont preform well or buy a mech they will get bored with. I had this problem with the catapult A1. Selling mechs is not profitable. What you really need is some kind of renting system. Where people are allowed to pick 2-3 mechs to rent for free, then players can customize and do what ever they want like they own it. So I could rent a D-Whale and run 6 ppcs if I want. However once the rent time is up, all additions to the mech are stripped, then the mech goes back to the store. This allows new players to try stuff out, and decide if they like a mech before they buy it, then once they buy it, they can just put all the stuff back on they previously had.

[Burktross]

This is just a shot in the dark, but how does unnerfing standard and buffing premium 15% sound?

Edited by Burktross, 17 October 2014 - 12:24 PM.