64 replies to this topic

[King Arthur IV]

there is special ky jelly in those barrels that allow the bullets to exit smoothly.

there, i wrote the space fluff that ties it all together for your lore based brain.

fivf dorra plz.

Edited by King Arthur IV, 17 October 2014 - 12:14 PM.

[Mercules]

stjobe, on 17 October 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

...which actually fires in 5-shot bursts.

I know, I know, beating a dead horse and all that - but ACs are burst-fire weaponry, "basically giant machineguns" according to the Tech Manual.

PGI actually got it right with the Clan ACs, now let's get the IS ACs on the lore train as well

Oh, as for the OP: Look at it not as a projectile speed buff (which it technically is), but as an accuracy buff.

Preaching to the choir.

[DocBach]

I hate using real life examples in MechWarrior since its not based in any sort of reality, but think of it like this; the M16 has a faster projectile speed than the M4 carbine and they both shoot the same bullet; we can use a little bit of creative thought to think that perhaps not all AC/20's in Battletech are created equally, and the Hunchback's engineering around this cannon gives it a bit more oompf than an AC/20 jury rigged in place of a Jagermech's AC/2.

[stjobe]

DocBach, on 17 October 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

I hate using real life examples in MechWarrior since its not based in any sort of reality, but think of it like this; the M16 has a faster projectile speed than the M4 carbine and they both shoot the same bullet; we can use a little bit of creative thought to think that perhaps not all AC/20's in Battletech are created equally, and the Hunchback's engineering around this cannon gives it a bit more oompf than an AC/20 jury rigged in place of a Jagermech's AC/2.

We don't even need "a little bit of creative thought", that's already been taken care of - a long, long time ago. We just need to know our BattleTech lore.

Here's what the Tech Manual says about autocannons:


(Tech Manual, p. 207)

Notice especially the part "[w]hile caliber and firing rate can vary greatly, four main classes have emerged" - caliber and firing rate differ even within classes, as can be seen in e.g. Era Report 3052:


(Era Report 3052, p. 98 sidebar)

Notice how the 150mm Crusher SH Cannon and the 185mm ChemJet both are AC/20s because they both hurl roughly 200 kg of ammo downrange every 10 seconds - or 20 kg/s. Yet the Crusher fires 10-round bursts, and the ChemJet 4-round bursts.

Similarly, an AC/2 is an AC/2 because it throws 2 kg/s downrange, not because it has a certain caliber or fire rate. An AC/5 is an AC/5 because it fires 5 kg/s, and an AC/10 10 kg/s.

For reference purposes only - no other comparisons between BattleTech autocannons and present-day tank guns intended - the M256 120mm Rheinmetall gun of the M1A2 is capable of firing roughly 1.8 kg/s downrange at max firing rate (6 rounds per minute, 18 kg each).

So yes, there is indeed lore backing for having way more differences between weapons than just a slight projectile speed buff - burst speed and burst size are two that come immediately to mind.

Edited by stjobe, 17 October 2014 - 02:55 PM.

[Clit Beastwood]

UrsusMorologus, on 17 October 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

I already told you, gave 3 solid arguments, maybe read those

As you grow into a proficient pilot, it won't matter as much. Mounted weapon accuracy and ranges can be affected by a wide variety of factors, including but not limited to the way they're mounted (solid vs. dampened), the aforementioned twist, the aforementioned charge. There's more to it, these quirks are positive, and you'll learn more and become a better pilot by learning to adapt and overcome adversity.

[UrsusMorologus]

Fierostetz, on 17 October 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

As you grow into a proficient pilot, it won't matter as much. Mounted weapon accuracy and ranges can be affected by a wide variety of factors, including but not limited to the way they're mounted (solid vs. dampened), the aforementioned twist, the aforementioned charge. There's more to it, these quirks are positive, and you'll learn more and become a better pilot by learning to adapt and overcome adversity.

Having to practice and relearn each mech before combat will certainly make a better pilot, the unfocused reflex wont do it alone

[verybad]

stjobe, on 17 October 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

...which actually fires in 5-shot bursts.

I know, I know, beating a dead horse and all that - but ACs are burst-fire weaponry, "basically giant machineguns" according to the Tech Manual.

PGI actually got it right with the Clan ACs, now let's get the IS ACs on the lore train as well

Oh, as for the OP: Look at it not as a projectile speed buff (which it technically is), but as an accuracy buff.

Some ACs are burst fire, and some aren't. The different brands have diferent sizes rates of fire, etc. Some are described as single shot, others as firing by bursts, it's not a "one shot fits all" kind of deal. This is actually good, as it lets the Devs use different values for ROF for example to balance the game.

[Clit Beastwood]

UrsusMorologus, on 17 October 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

Having to practice and relearn each mech before combat will certainly make a better pilot, the unfocused reflex wont do it alone

That's part of the point, I'd speculate. Frequent complaints of MWO becoming a twitch shooter would definitely incentivize PGI to de-twitch it a little. Forcing users to adapt to different projectile speeds, etc. wouldn't steepen the learning curve, but they'd steepen the mastery curve.

[stjobe]

verybad, on 17 October 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

Some are described as single shot

[citation needed]

Seriously, show me one.

Just one screenshot or verifiable quote to a canon source saying unequivocally that a certain make of autocannon is a single-shot weapon. Yes, I know the image I just posted says they might exist (or at least that they would be AC/20s if they fired a single 200 kg round every 10 seconds), but of all the autocannons that have been described in lore as having a certain caliber or firing rate, every single one has been described as either continuous- or burst-fire.

It bears repeating: All of them - every last one - have been described as continuous- or burst-fire.

The single-shot AC is a myth, a misunderstanding of the lore based on the simplifications made for the TT rules.

[DocBach]

As much as it'd convolute the ability to glance at a 'Mech an know exactly what the quirks do at first glance, the inner dork in me would love to see the perks named after their cannon fluff weapon systems ie the Hunchback quirk shows up as

"Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20" and then has the description of what the perk does in effect when the mouse is held over it.

[UrsusMorologus]

That would be pretty nifty, but it kind of carries an assumption that I should be able to buy the Tomodzuru Autocannon somewhere for my other mechs as well. And then those mechs would get the benefits. And to be honest that would be quite awesome to get a Tomodzuru Autocannon that has a ~faster refire rate, or whatever.

But by tying the quirks to the chassis, well, its obviously not portable, and everything is just a lot simpler

Edited by UrsusMorologus, 17 October 2014 - 03:56 PM.

[KamikazeRat]

stjobe, on 17 October 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

[citation needed]

Seriously, show me one.

Just one screenshot or verifiable quote to a canon source saying unequivocally that a certain make of autocannon is a single-shot weapon. Yes, I know the image I just posted says they might exist (or at least that they would be AC/20s if they fired a single 200 kg round every 10 seconds), but of all the autocannons that have been described in lore as having a certain caliber or firing rate, every single one has been described as either continuous- or burst-fire.

It bears repeating: All of them - every last one - have been described as continuous- or burst-fire.

The single-shot AC is a myth, a misunderstanding of the lore based on the simplifications made for the TT rules.

MWO is an alternate reality in which after the clans departed a bunch of designers decided that 1 big slug was better than lots of little ones at punching through armor and so all the modern AC designs follow this principle, while the clans never had this breakthrough and continue to use burst fire mechanics

does that make the lore happy?

as far as the OP is concerned, i switch between PPC, ERPPC, cERPPC, AC/10, AC/20, AC5....all the time, and i have very little problems adjusting. so adjusting to half-steps inbetween, won't be that big of a deal either. occasionally, i'll try for a long shot with a shorter-ranged AC....and think to myself...wow that was dumb, i've got a AC/20 not an AC5.....i don't think it will be that different as long as you know the mechs you're piloting, after 1-2 shots in, you'll remember, "oh yeah, hunchie slings em out a little faster gotta lead just a hair less"

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Jacob Side, on 17 October 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Example of 30-06 bullet velocity


150 gr (10 g) Nosler Ballistic Tip 2,910 ft/s (890 m/s)
165 gr (11 g) BTSP 2,800 ft/s (850 m/s)
180 gr (12 g) Core-Lokt Soft Point 2,700 ft/s (820 m/s)
200 gr (13 g) Partition 2,569 ft/s (783 m/s)
220 gr (14 g) RN 2,500 ft/s (760 m/s)


So tell us again why they shouldn't buff projectile speed?

Maybe reading the OP might help

[Bigbacon]

Jacob Side, on 17 October 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

And I just gave you a real world example of off the shelf gun and ammo that have different velocities depending on the off the shelf ammo you put into the gun.

wow...game vs real life....not real good arguments.

[The Wakelord]

I would just like to point out that the targetting computers already increase projectile speed - as an example for somethign special I'm using a TC IV on a Nova

[Xarian]

These sorts of buffs increase the flexibility and variety available in the game. You've presented no rational reason for keeping projectile speeds constant - your entire argument boils down to "because I don't like it".

[Kilrein]

El Bandito, on 17 October 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

I am also against increased projectile speed. Especially on Clan Targeting Computer.

You are kinda missing the point here. Faster speed = better chance of hitting. Targeting Computers in TT (yes, yes, yes, I know this isn't TT) gave a bonus to hit of -1 on 2d6. In MWO the best way to simulate that is to speed up the weapon which will increase the accuracy against a moving target.

[Murphy7]

stjobe, on 17 October 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

[citation needed]

Seriously, show me one.

Just one screenshot or verifiable quote to a canon source saying unequivocally that a certain make of autocannon is a single-shot weapon. Yes, I know the image I just posted says they might exist (or at least that they would be AC/20s if they fired a single 200 kg round every 10 seconds), but of all the autocannons that have been described in lore as having a certain caliber or firing rate, every single one has been described as either continuous- or burst-fire.

It bears repeating: All of them - every last one - have been described as continuous- or burst-fire.

The single-shot AC is a myth, a misunderstanding of the lore based on the simplifications made for the TT rules.

The image of the Hunchback has done more harm in this matter than anything else, I imagine. The idea that this thing is shot-putting giant rounds like a gun from Ohta's more lurid dreams is absurd and yet, pervasive.

[UrsusMorologus]

Kilrein, on 17 October 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Faster speed = better chance of hitting. [...] In MWO the best way to simulate that is to speed up the weapon which will increase the accuracy against a moving target.

This is off to the side a bit, but its an interesting point.

The best way to buff accuracy is to increase the size of the projectile's hit-box

Buffing speed is a relatively poor hack, because it doesnt actually help accuracy any, it makes weapons behave differently which is counterproductive. The only buff to accuracy is relative because all other platforms become more inaccurate.

[Xarian]

DocBach, on 17 October 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

As much as it'd convolute the ability to glance at a 'Mech an know exactly what the quirks do at first glance, the inner dork in me would love to see the perks named after their cannon fluff weapon systems ie the Hunchback quirk shows up as

"Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20" and then has the description of what the perk does in effect when the mouse is held over it.

good idea