81 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

While theory-crafting what the likely potential focus of bonuses would be for the Boar's Head and working on some rough builds around them, this thought occurred to me.

If a T3 Assault mech gets a T3 quirk for a Medium Pulse laser, which is likely a T4 or T5 weapon - does that actually move the needle enough for this mech?

It's one thing to get quirks for an excellent weapon, like AC 20, AC 10, Gauss, ER LLAS, LLAS, etc., and quite another if you get quirks for small lasers or medium pulse lasers.


So just for discussion, what tier would you put all of the weapons?

IS Energy
IS Ballistic
IS Missile


Clan Energy
Clan Ballistic
Clan Missile


Here's some input from Xarian:

Xarian, on 17 October 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

Yeah I think you have to kinda blur your eyes a little. High T3 and low T3 are still T3, which makes it tough.

My rubric is like this:
T1 - Weapons that you see the vast majority of highly-ranked competitive teams use. Ever been blown away by 228th/etc? They run these weapons, and they can kill you with them before you even get to shoot back.
T2 - Weapons that are very good, just not quite up to the level of the T1 weapons. These weapons are competitive, very strong, and are always a good choice.
T3 - Weapons that can be good if you know how to use them properly, but generally won't be the absolute best choice for the job. Still usable, and you will occasionally see them in "good" builds, but not often.
T4 - You've got to work exceptionally hard to make these weapons effective. If you have a choice, you will almost always benefit from using a different weapon. These weapons leave you feeling like something is missing.
T5 - Useless weapons; a waste of tonnage and crit space. These weapons are unusable.

IS





Clan

Edited by Ultimatum X, 19 October 2014 - 07:01 AM.

[Xarian]

T1
isPPC
isGauss
cERPPC
cGauss

T2
isERPPC
isERLL
isSRM 4/6
cSRM 4/6
cUAC/5
cLB 5-X
isAC/5
isUAC/5
isML
cERML
isAC/20
isLRM 15/20

T3
isLL
cLPL
cERLL
isLPL
isMPL
cLBX-20
cSRM 2
isSRM 2
isSSRM 2
cSSRM 2/4/6
isAC/10
isLRM 5
cLRM 5/10/15/20
cAMS
isAMS
cTAG
isTAG
isNARC
cNARC

T4
cMPL
cUAC/20
isLB 10-X
cLB 10-X
cLB 2-X
isAC/2
cUAC/2
cMG
isMG
isLRM 10

T5
cERSL
cSPL
isSL
cFlamer
isFlamer

Edited by Xarian, 17 October 2014 - 05:26 PM.

[1453 R]

May give this a shot later when I've got more time to really sit down and hammer out some logic. Heh, one thing I do know is that PPCs aren't going to be either T1 or T5, no matter what people around this place are saying.

[FupDup]

The first thoughts that come to mind, may edit this later:


T1
Gauss (both factions)
ERLL (IS)
SRM4 (both factions)
SRM6 (both factions)
ERML
ML
LPL (Clan)
UAC/5 (IS)
AC/20 (IS)


T2
ERLL (Clan)
AC/5 (IS)
LB 5-X


T3
LL
Streaks (all salvo sizes, both factions)
Lurms (all salvo sizes, both factions)
AC/10 (IS)
UAC/5 (Clan)
PPC
ERPPC (both factions)


T4
LPL (IS)
MPL (IS)
AC/2 (IS)
LB 10-X (both factions)
LB 20-X
MGs (both factions)
ERSL
UAC/10
UAC/20


T5
Flamer (both factions)
SPL (both factions)
MPL (Clan)
LB 2-X
SRM2 (both factions)
SL
UAC/2
AC/2 (Clan)
AC/5 (Clan)
AC/10 (Clan)
AC/20 (Clan)

Edited by FupDup, 17 October 2014 - 06:56 PM.

[Xarian]

FupDup, on 17 October 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

stuff

Your list is excessively heavy at the top and the bottom... there's absolutely no way that the Clan MPL is in the same boat as the Flamer/SL, and also no way that the Clan LPL is in the same boat as Gauss.

[FupDup]

Xarian, on 17 October 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

Your list is excessively heavy at the top and the bottom... there's absolutely no way that the Clan MPL is in the same boat as the Flamer/SL, and also no way that the Clan LPL is in the same boat as Gauss.

Keep in mind that my list was fairly quickly hashed out, so it's not 100% perfect.

For the Clan LPL, I rated it high because the best build in the game uses it right now (4-5 ERML + 2 LPL Mad Cat). It certainly isn't any lower than T2. It's basically a Large Laser on steroids.

As for the Clan MPL, I basically ran out of places to put it. I didn't put it on-level with the IS MPL because the IS MPL has a more distinct niche of short duration, whereas the Clan version has a poopy duration and doesn't enjoy the amazeballs range of the Clan LPL. The IS MPL also actually does slightly more damage than the IS ML, whereas the Clan MPL has almost identical damage to the Clan ERML. I think that the IS MPL stacks up better against the IS ML than the Clan MPL stacks up against the Clan ERML (that being said, both pulses need some lovin').


In general, part of the top-heavy and bottom-heavy phenomenon is because that's how bipolar MWO balance often is. Most weapons are in fact either go-to or bleh.

Edited by FupDup, 17 October 2014 - 07:31 PM.

[Hoax415]

Who cares about Clan weaps for now.

Tier-1
AC20
Gauss (2+)

Tier-2
Gauss
LL
LPL
ERPPC
PPC
ERLL
AC5 (2+)
UAC5 (2+)
LBX10

Tier-3
ML
AC5 (single)
UAC5 (single)
AC10

Tier-4
MPL
MG

Tier-5
SL
AC2
SPL

Tier-6
Flamer

I was trying to bring up this exact type of thinking http://mwomercs.com/...the-quirk-pass/ here because it does seem to be quite a flaw in the quirk pass philosophy.

I like weapon specific quirks but the reality is that the Hunch getting AC20 quirks is T5 and the one getting AC10 quirks is T4 and the results are going to be counter to the whole purpose of the tier list + quirk pass.

The reality is that AC20 Cooldown or Range or Projectile Speed needs to be balanced with other weapon systems.

So lets say that AC20 Cooldown T5 = 10% obviously the same buff for AC10 needs to be higher. The same buff for Gauss should be the same or lower? etc.

Edited by Hoax415, 17 October 2014 - 07:43 PM.

[Xarian]

FupDup, on 17 October 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

Keep in mind that my list was fairly quickly hashed out, so it's not 100% perfect.

For the Clan LPL, I rated it high because the best build in the game uses it right now (4-5 ERML + 2 LPL Mad Cat). It certainly isn't any lower than T2. It's basically a Large Laser on steroids.

As for the Clan MPL, I basically ran out of places to put it. I didn't put it on-level with the IS MPL because the IS MPL has a more distinct niche of short duration, whereas the Clan version has a poopy duration and doesn't enjoy the amazeballs range of the Clan LPL. The IS MPL also actually does slightly more damage than the IS ML, whereas the Clan MPL has almost identical damage to the Clan ERML. I think that the IS MPL stacks up better against the IS ML than the Clan MPL stacks up against the Clan ERML (that being said, both pulses need some lovin').


In general, part of the top-heavy and bottom-heavy phenomenon is because that's how bipolar MWO balance often is. Most weapons are in fact either go-to or bleh.

Oh I agree with your analysis, but I think you should start to look at shades of grey rather than black-or-white.

Based on your statements, the Clan MPL is not as good as the Clan LPL, but is not as bad as the SPL (not even bringing up the flamer, that thing doesn't even have a Tier). So if you think the Clan LPL is T1 and the SPL is T5, then you should assign the Clan MPL to T2, T3, or T4. Since you said that the IS MPL is better at its job than the Clan MPL, then you should rate the IS MPL higher than the Clan MPL. So we're looking at T1 for cLPL, T3 for isMPL, and T4 for cMPL. That's the same as my ranking, except I put the Clan LPL lower because I don't think it's that great.

The TBR with 4-5 ERML and 2 LPL is certainly good for disorganized solo queue games, but it's pretty mediocre in group queue - too hot, can't compete with SRMs or Gauss, etc.

Edited by Xarian, 17 October 2014 - 07:55 PM.

[FupDup]

Xarian, on 17 October 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

Oh I agree with your analysis, but I think you should start to look at shades of grey rather than black-or-white.

Based on your statements, the Clan MPL is not as good as the Clan LPL, but is not as bad as the SPL (not even bringing up the flamer, that thing doesn't even have a Tier). So if you think the Clan LPL is T1 and the Flamer is T5, then you should assign the Clan MPL to T2, T3, or T4. Since you said that the IS MPL is better at its job than the Clan MPL, then you should rate the IS MPL higher than the Clan MPL. So we're looking at T1 for cLPL, T3 for isMPL, and T4 for cMPL. That's the same as my ranking, except I put the Clan LPL lower because I don't think it's that great.

I was thinking about adding a T6 (heck, why not T10) specifically for Flamers, because basically nothing is as horrible as they are. That would slightly redistribute the table.

For the MPL, I don't think the IS version quite makes it to T3 (my logic was that T3 = "fairly mediocre but capable if you try hard enough" and T4 = "significantly sub-par but still usable" and T5 = "steering wheel underhive"). Maybe T4.5? More tiers would make this easier to rank.

[Xarian]

FupDup, on 17 October 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:

I was thinking about adding a T6 (heck, why not T10) specifically for Flamers, because basically nothing is as horrible as they are. That would slightly redistribute the table.

For the MPL, I don't think the IS version quite makes it to T3 (my logic was that T3 = "fairly mediocre but capable if you try hard enough" and T4 = "significantly sub-par but still usable" and T5 = "steering wheel underhive"). Maybe T4.5? More tiers would make this easier to rank.

Yeah I think you have to kinda blur your eyes a little. High T3 and low T3 are still T3, which makes it tough.

My rubric is like this:
T1 - Weapons that you see the vast majority of highly-ranked competitive teams use. Ever been blown away by 228th/etc? They run these weapons, and they can kill you with them before you even get to shoot back.
T2 - Weapons that are very good, just not quite up to the level of the T1 weapons. These weapons are competitive, very strong, and are always a good choice.
T3 - Weapons that can be good if you know how to use them properly, but generally won't be the absolute best choice for the job. Still usable, and you will occasionally see them in "good" builds, but not often.
T4 - You've got to work exceptionally hard to make these weapons effective. If you have a choice, you will almost always benefit from using a different weapon. These weapons leave you feeling like something is missing.
T5 - Useless weapons; a waste of tonnage and crit space. These weapons are unusable.
T6? - Weapons that actually hurt you for using them: the Flamer!

[Cyborne Elemental]

Tier1
C+IS Gauss
C-ERPPC
ERLL
UAC-5
PPC

Tier2
AC-20
ERPPC
ERML
C-LPL
LL
AC-5
SRM4
UAC-10
C-LRM-5
C-ERLL

Tier3
ML
SRM6
SRM4+ART
C-S-SRM4
C-UAC5
C-LBX10
AC-10
C-MG (weight)
C-LRM-5+ART
C-LRM-10
C-LRM-15
C-LRM-20
LRM-5
LRM-10
LRM-15

Tier4
SRM-6+ART
C-S-SRM6
S-SRM2
SRM2
C-LRM-10+ART
C-LRM-15+ART
C-LRM-20+ART
LRM-5+ART
LRM-10+ART
LRM-15+ART
LRM-20
C-LBX-20 (no ghost heat x2)
C-LBX-5
LB-10X
AC-2 (stagger fire ghost heat + heat in general should warrant Tier-5)
CAC-5
CAC-2
CUAC-2
MG
LPL
MPL
SL
ERSL

Tier5
C-UAC-20 (Ghost heat + long burst time)
CAC-20
CAC-10
C-LBX-2
LRM20+ART
SRM2+ART
SPL
ERSPL
ERMPL
Flamer

Edited by Mister D, 17 October 2014 - 08:31 PM.

[Ultimax]

Updated OP.


How do people feel about that list (just IS at the moment)?

[Hoax415]

Missile is fine.

There is no way the LBX10 should be under AC10.

Energy is the hardest to call, ERLL alone in T1 def doesn't look right to me but I get how you ended up there.

Edited by Hoax415, 17 October 2014 - 08:33 PM.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 17 October 2014 - 08:29 PM, said:

Updated OP.


How do people feel about that list (just IS at the moment)?

Personally:


-Move ML to T1 (it's the best use of 1 ton available to the Inner Sphere, can fit on and compliment virtually any build ever)

-Move SRM4 and SRM6 to T1 (quite effective brawling weapons, good damage ratio and decent enough heat)

-Maybe move SSRM2 to T3 (can be okay for trolling lights and smaller mediums if you have enough of them, but T4 isn't entirely inaccurate either)...then again, my experience might be tainted by recently running a Streakboat Mad Doge...

-Move SRM2 to T5

Other than that I agree with most of it.

Edited by FupDup, 17 October 2014 - 08:37 PM.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 17 October 2014 - 08:34 PM, said:

-Move ML to T1 (it's the best use of 1 ton available to the Inner Sphere, can fit on and compliment virtually any build ever)

This was a tough one.

I'm going to say that it's unlikely T1.

It might be T2 though.


The reason I'll say it's not T1 is because 1 MLAS really is not any kind of a standout weapon, because it's limited by range, heat and burn time.

I'm going to update the OP with Xarian's rubric, and then re-evaluate a few weapons based on that (and thread feedback).

FupDup, on 17 October 2014 - 08:34 PM, said:

-Move SRM4 and SRM6 to T1 (quite effective brawling weapons, good damage ratio and decent enough heat)

They are effective brawling weapons, but do you think SRM4/6 are as good as Gauss Rifle?

As it is, I wasn't entirely sure they should be in the same tier as a UAC 5 (T2).



I agree,

I think SRM 2 can shift down to T5 as well.

Edited the chart.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 17 October 2014 - 08:53 PM.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 17 October 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

This was a tough one.

I'm going to say that it's unlikely T1.

It might be T2 though.


The reason I'll say it's not T1 is because 1 MLAS really is not any kind of a standout weapon, because it's limited by range, heat and burn time.

Well, if we're talking about one weapon being used all by its lonesome self, that would change the ratings a bit... I'm assuming that most people who use them use at least 2 of them (preferably like 3-4).

Ultimatum X, on 17 October 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

They are effective brawling weapons, but do you think SRM4/6 are as good as Gauss Rifle?

As it is, I wasn't entirely sure they should be in the same tier as a UAC 5 (T2).

One SRM4/6 isn't as good as one Goose Waffle, but even just 2-3 of either launcher size will be more economical (in terms of damage output) than the Goose at least.

Plus, I'm also going off of Adiuvo anecdotes that most combat in MetaLand™ takes place at 400m or less (the steering wheel underhive tends to be at medium ranges to long ranges due to the campy/complacent nature of most pugs).

Edited by FupDup, 17 October 2014 - 08:54 PM.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 17 October 2014 - 08:53 PM, said:

One SRM4/6 isn't as good as one Goose Waffle, but even just 2-3 of either launcher size will be more economical (in terms of damage output) than the Goose at least.

Plus, I'm also going off of Adiuvo anecdotes that most combat in MetaLand™ takes place at 400m or less (the steering wheel underhive tends to be at medium ranges to long ranges due to the campy/complacent nature of most pugs).

I'll think on it, see what kind of input I get from the crowd.

"T2 - Weapons that are very good, just not quite up to the level of the T1 weapons. These weapons are competitive, very strong, and are always a good choice."

That's not a bad place to be.

I think SRM 4/6s are a very good choice. I think they are strong and competitive.

However they are spread damage, they require significant leading. Even if the matches take place 400m and under, these are weapons that only do their best around 200m or less. On most builds I would have to think long and hard if I wanted 3x ASRM 6s over 1x AC 20.

My gut tells me, I'd likely take the AC 20 as primary choice almost every time.


To keep it simple I just put them as is, although if I feel frisky tomorrow I might separate normal vs. artemis versions of all missiles.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 17 October 2014 - 09:01 PM.

[Ultimax]

How do people feel about where I have LRMs?

I've been starting at it, and I'm debating lumping them all into T3, except for maybe the LRM 20s.

[Deathlike]

All I will say is... IS medium lasersfill the role that most other weapons cannot fill.

And... I'd still like it to have its normal heat from TT.

I don't think anyone can argue its utility overall. Mind you, it won't ever be long ranging, but for 80+% of what most people bring/build/use, it can never be missed on the battlefield by design.

Ultimatum X, on 17 October 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

How do people feel about where I have LRMs?

I've been starting at it, and I'm debating lumping them all into T3, except for maybe the LRM 20s.

LRM20s are worst off... even the LRM15 gets more play, despite the spread. It's in a better spot than the LRM20 unfortunately.

[zortesh]

well how i reason it roughly.

T1
Guass.
is ac5

T2
clan erll
clan erppc
is ppc
clan lpl

t3
srm6/4
Clan med las
ac20
Is large laser
Clan autocannons
is autocannons
Iserppc
narc

t4
all streaks
Is medium lasers
clan lbx
srm2
all lrms

t5
small lasers
flamers
mguns

Edited by zortesh, 17 October 2014 - 09:14 PM.