81 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Update:

Dropped IS LRM 15 down to T3.

Added Clan weapons.

[Cygone]

Weapons are good / bad based on what is played in the meta. Problem with that is, that NA and EU meta is different.

One thing I will say regardless is that

ISLL Tier 1 > ISERLL > Tier 2 !!!!

And the IS PPC/ERPPC are not 2 and 3, more like 3 and 4

Edited by Cygone, 18 October 2014 - 01:41 AM.

[El Bandito]

So that means I have been using T1 weapons on a T1 mech? Ok.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 October 2014 - 03:04 AM.

[Macster16]

I don't quite get the love for the IS-ERLL. That 1 extra heat and especially that extra 0.25sec burn time turns me off it and going for the standard LL. Use the LL with range mod, and I rarely find myself in situations where the LL does not reach (with exception of Alpine of course), so its extra range does not make up for its drawbacks in my eyes. Back when it was 1sec burn time, yeah it was definitely strong, but after nerf I've just stuck with LL.

[Ultimax]

Macster16, on 18 October 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

I don't quite get the love for the IS-ERLL. That 1 extra heat and especially that extra 0.25sec burn time turns me off it and going for the standard LL. Use the LL with range mod, and I rarely find myself in situations where the LL does not reach (with exception of Alpine of course), so its extra range does not make up for its drawbacks in my eyes. Back when it was 1sec burn time, yeah it was definitely strong, but after nerf I've just stuck with LL.

El Bandito, on 18 October 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

So that means I have been using T1 weapons on a T1 mech? Ok.

I'm not saying these tiers are definitive.

I'm just putting my best guesses up and trying to get the opinions of others for a rough consensus, several others in the thread also listed ERLLAS at T1.

If you feel it should be a different tier, please let me know why & what tier. (Mac gave me his reasons, but not what Tier).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 18 October 2014 - 07:04 AM.

[Scurry]

I'm not too sure about MGs being Tier 5. Are Embers good because they boat MGs? Because they're utterly useless on their own, but they seem to have a purpose when boated.

[FupDup]

Scurry, on 18 October 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

I'm not too sure about MGs being Tier 5. Are Embers good because they boat MGs? Because they're utterly useless on their own, but they seem to have a purpose when boated.

I think the Ember is a bit of an outlier case regarding MGs.

[Ultimax]

Scurry, on 18 October 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

I'm not too sure about MGs being Tier 5. Are Embers good because they boat MGs? Because they're utterly useless on their own, but they seem to have a purpose when boated.

I've been mulling over putting them at T4, but when I think about it my opinion is that:

1 MG is basically worthless, 2 isn't much better. 1 MG + min half ton ammo is a full ton dedicated to a weapon that will do almost nothing.

Around 3 they start to do something noticeable, with 4 being where they really shine.


That being said, would I play a light mech that only had 4 MGs? The answer is no.

Even 4 MGs isn't enough to be "good", or even useful.

What makes them shine on the Ember, is that they are a useful back up solution to a mech that can bring 4 MLAS as the primary weapon system.


The MGs are just what I use on my Ember for when I'm running hot, or armor on target has been strippped or to harass/terrify other light mechs (watching your leg armor flash perpetually is usually concerning).

On their own, they'd be pretty poo though. Short range, cone of fire, must face stare target, requires multiple ballistic hardpoints and even then they are still just a back up/supplemental weapon.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 18 October 2014 - 07:20 AM.

[Cygone]

IS AC5 and UAC5 cant possibly be the same teir.

The UAC5 can act exactly the same as the AC5, if you ignore the double-tap function, but the double tap brings this weapon into a different league than the AC5, push AC5 down at least 1 tier, possibly 2.

SSRM2 is not even close to a T3 weapon, it just completely sucks for what it is, T5.

Please add A+SRM to list (All A variants +1 Tier)
.

Edited by Cygone, 18 October 2014 - 07:27 AM.

[Ultimax]

Cygone, on 18 October 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

IS AC5 and UAC5 cant possibly be the same teir.

The UAC5 can act exactly the same as the AC5, if you ignore the double-tap function, but the double tap brings this weapon into a different league than the AC5, push AC5 down at least 1 tier, possibly 2.

The reason I have them at the same tier is that although yes the UAC 5 can out DPS the AC 5, the AC 5 never jams, is lighter, requires less crit slots (which comes into play sometimes when trying to slot 2 in the same location) and generally requires less ammo.

The trade offs between them seem pretty fair, but if I get feedback with other players saying the same thing I'll push the AC 5 down to T3.

There is no way the AC 5 is T4 though.

Cygone, on 18 October 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

Please add A+SRM to list (All A variants +1 Tier)

I've not tested these personally, but I've seen video testing from another poster.

Artemis seems to add some improvement in grouping but I'm not sure if it's a full tiers worth as it does make each launcher heavier and use more crits.

I don't have a strong opinion on this, how would you (or anyone else) rank each individial SRM vs. it's ASRM version?

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 18 October 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

I've not tested these personally, but I've seen video testing from another poster.

Artemis seems to add some improvement in grouping but I'm not sure if it's a full tiers worth as it does make each launcher heavier and use more crits.

I don't have a strong opinion on this, how would you (or anyone else) rank each individial SRM vs. it's ASRM version?

For certain, ARM4/6 could maybe be one tier above their counterparts or so. Certainly at least on-par.

The ASRM2, however, is the odd man out and is actually inferior to its non-Artemis counterpart because of the relative weight given up for it (i.e. double weight for IS SRM2, triple weight for Clan SRM2). Tier 6?

Edited by FupDup, 18 October 2014 - 08:22 AM.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 18 October 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

For certain, ARM4/6 could maybe be one tier above their counterparts or so.

The ASRM2, however, is the odd man out and is actually inferior to its non-Artemis counterpart because of the relative weight given up for it (i.e. double weight for IS SRM2, triple weight for Clan SRM2). Tier 6?

While the SRM 2 is more optimal than ASRM 2 I don't think it requires a new tier in the system.

Imagine each tier as a range, stuff can fit in that range even if some stuff within the range is better than other stuff.


A good visual concept would be a ruler.

Anything from 0.1cm to 0.9 cm = T5, 1cm to 1.9cm = T4.

Something can be 0.3cm and another be 0.7cm but they are both still inside T5.

[Xarian]

I'm firmly in the camp that the Machine Gun is a T4 weapon. It's not something that you want to use excessively, but can be a useful addition to high-heat, close-range setups on certain mechs; though it is often very underwhelming.

Cygone, on 18 October 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

IS AC5 and UAC5 cant possibly be the same teir.

The UAC5 can act exactly the same as the AC5, if you ignore the double-tap function, but the double tap brings this weapon into a different league than the AC5, push AC5 down at least 1 tier, possibly 2.

SSRM2 is not even close to a T3 weapon, it just completely sucks for what it is, T5.

Please add A+SRM to list (All A variants +1 Tier)
.

UAC/5 can also jam, weighs more, and takes up more crit space. In other words, it's balanced with the AC/5. The AC/5 is also more commonly used, which speaks to the fact that the UAC/5 is not flat-out better.

I don't really know how you would think that the SSRM 2 is T5. It's a perfectly usable weapon - it's no Gauss rifle, but using 1 or more of them as a secondary weapon system on something like a Shadowhawk works pretty well for putting damage on lights.

Artemis SRM costs an extra crit slot and an extra ton, and in turn it tightens the spread. This means that Artemis+SRM is most useful at long ranges for SRMs - 150 meters plus. Artemis SRM6 is a little better than non-Artemis SRM6, but not enough to warrant jumping another Tier. Artemis SRM4 is balanced with SRM4 - that tonnage and crit slot is a pretty big increase relative to its base crits/tonnage. Artemis SRM2 is actually worse than non-Artemis SRM2, but again not enough to warrant a jump in Tier. Artemis SRM2, while bad, is still better than a Flamer or an ER Small Laser.

[Y E O N N E]

Ultimatum X, on 17 October 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

IS





Clan

I believe SSRM2 and SRM2 ought to be swapped. The SRM2 weighs less, is not dependent on a lock, does more damage, and can have its shots placed to a specific component.

I would also swap the UAC/5 and AC/10 positions. The AC/10 may be heavy, but it still weighs less than a Gauss and outputs a greater amount of damage over time. Which one is a better option is entirely dependent on whether or not the fight stays above 500 meters, which it usually doesn't. The UAC/5, on the other hand, is not a reliable weapon and is only truly dangerous in quantities exceeding the weight of an AC/10.

The AC/20 also doesn't deserve Tier 1. Yeah, that's a lot of pin-point, front-loaded damage, but the range is so short and the heat is so high and the gun is so fragile that it must be used very carefully. It belongs in Tier 4, AC/5 belongs in Tier 1.

[Ultimax]

Xarian, on 18 October 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

I'm firmly in the camp that the Machine Gun is a T4 weapon. It's not something that you want to use excessively, but can be a useful addition to high-heat, close-range setups on certain mechs; though it is often very underwhelming.

That's fair. It is better than the flamer, I would never purposely take a flamer but I do purposely take MGs.

Yeonne Greene, on 18 October 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

I believe SSRM2 and SRM2 ought to be swapped. The SRM2 weighs less, is not dependent on a lock, does more damage, and can have its shots placed to a specific component.

The SRM 2, I can honestly say I don't think I've ever faced any enemy using this other than mechs like commandos.

Maybe it's not T5, but I'm still not convinced it's T3. I'll push it up to 4.

Yeonne Greene, on 18 October 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

I would also swap the UAC/5 and AC/10 positions. The AC/10 may be heavy, but it still weighs less than a Gauss and outputs a greater amount of damage over time.

I actually like the AC 10, and T3 doesn't mean a weapon is bad.

It is a decent weapon, but it's not a great weapon imo.

It's very heavy for it's output, at 12 tons it's only 2 tons from being an AC 20. Once the fight get's inside brawl range, you were likely better off with the AC 20.

Yeonne Greene, on 18 October 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

The AC/20 also doesn't deserve Tier 1. Yeah, that's a lot of pin-point, front-loaded damage, but the range is so short and the heat is so high and the gun is so fragile that it must be used very carefully. It belongs in Tier 4, AC/5 belongs in Tier 1.

T4?

I can't agree with this at all, there is no way the AC 20 is in the same tier as an AC 2 or a Medium Pulse laser.

It is one of, if not the, premier brawling weapon in the game.

Not only does it have 33% higher single hit damage over the Gauss rifle - it also fires faster and has something like 60% higher DPS. So when the two of these meet face to face in a brawl, the AC 20 has a huge advantage.

If you can take any single ballistic weapon, then your choice of Gauss or AC 20 is usually dependent on what range you intend your build to fight.

It might not be as generally usable as the Gauss but it is the best at what it does with its pin point front loaded killing power.


As I mentioned up-thread these tiers are ranges, so the Gauss might be generally more usable on many builds due to it's range but the AC 20 is still excellent at what it does and can still be in the same tier even if they aren't 100% equals.

If others also feel strongly that it's not T1, then I'd go along with others and drop it down to T2 at the absolute minimum.

Thanks for the feedback though.




Update round up:

> Moved SRM 2 up to T4
> Moved SSRM 2 down to T4
> Moved MG up to T4

[Y E O N N E]

I derped, I meant to say AC/20 should go into Tier 2, not Tier 4.

As for AC/10 vs. AC/20, tough call. The AC/20 does more front-loaded damage, but it also heats you up far faster. My K2 has twin AC/10s and four medium lasers on it. If I had two AC/20s, I would only be able to fit two medium lasers and I'd never get to use them because the AC/20s each generate 7 heat instantaneously. They'd be there purely as backup. I'd also get less heatsinks in, compounding the issue.

And...two AC/10 does 8 dps without modules, ~10 with. That's insane, especially with such low heat generation. It's a phenomenal brawling weapon, and it can reach out and slug people from what I would consider the median engagement range of 400 meters.

tl;dr on the AC/10: it outguns the AC/20 because it generates less heat, has longer range, and allows you to use other weapons in conjunction with it that give you more punching power than an AC/20 and whatever else you can pack without taking you to heat-soak in the blink of an eye.

P.S. I use SRM2 on almost every build I have that has missile slots. JM6-A, allows a constant stream of cockpit-rattling explosions. LCT-3S: super fast re-fire and tight groupings allows for rapid destruction of backsides. LCT-1M: similar story to LCT-3S, only the quick re-fire helps more when fighting other lights. Had them on my Dragons as well, and I have three sets on my ON1-M for the same reasons I have them on the JM6-A...only it's more blasty with an AC/10 and an AC/5 coupled.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 19 October 2014 - 11:53 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I don't mind this concept because in a (stock) kinda way it seems cool, but without the quirks that simply blanket something such as all energy weapons then it cuts way down on diversity of builds.

[SpeedingBus]

You guys are all high if you think IS PPC is T2 let alone putting ER PPC as T3..... PPC is T4 and so is ER PPC.

You every notice no one uses PPCs anymore? cause they suck and the only time you see ER PPCs is on lights for sniping which is ok I guess.

[Ultimax]

SpeedingBus, on 19 October 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

You guys are all high if you think IS PPC is T2 let alone putting ER PPC as T3..... PPC is T4 and so is ER PPC.

You every notice no one uses PPCs anymore? cause they suck and the only time you see ER PPCs is on lights for sniping which is ok I guess.

People still use PPCs, they are just a bit more niche now.

You see them combined with (U)AC5/10/20 builds still.

Two mechs in particular that are great for these combos will soon be un-nerfed.


I think it's at least fair to say that the PPC might also be T3.

I think "suck" and "T4" is a stretch.

[Macster16]

Okay here's my list. Note that I'm rating IS weaps only as I don't play clans, so can't really form an evaluation for clan weaps.

T1
Gauss - Only weapon I feel exceeds all others and could do with a tone down

T2
AC20
AC5
UAC5
LL
mLas

T3
Lpulse - most are going to disagree, but the large pulse can be can be very effective if used correctly (peek-a-boo)
ERLL
PPC
ERPPC
AC10
SRM 4/6
LRM 5/10/15

T4
mPulse
AC2
SRM2
SSRM2
LRM20
sLas
LB10-X

T5
sPulse
MG
Flamer

Not sure if I missed any.
EDIT: forgot to add the LB10-X (added to T4)

Edited by Macster16, 19 October 2014 - 09:17 PM.