26 replies to this topic

[Mobile Ordnance Platform]

what would be the best armor distribution for the jenner ?

specifically like a jr7-f with small pulse or ml
can someone share the most ideal/optimal ct st head ratio if there is such a thing

[990Dreams]

Sterotypical JR7-F using 1 ton weapons

You can replace the MLs with Small Pulse Lasers if you like. It has max armor and engine. And AMS and all 5 Jump Jets.

[Redshift2k5]

you've got enough free slots to add Ferro-fibrous(frees up .85 tons), with a little trimming you can get a whole free ton for another heatsink. Not sure if it's better to shave the head down or shave a couple off the arms.

[TercieI]

Redshift2k5, on 20 October 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

you've got enough free slots to add Ferro-fibrous(frees up .85 tons), with a little trimming you can get a whole free ton for another heatsink. Not sure if it's better to shave the head down or shave a couple off the arms.

Either/both. Should also drop to 1JJ, lose AMS and add more DHS. The only places you can't cheat armor on a Jenner are CT (5-10 back depending) and legs. The JR7-F is hot, you can't afford all that junk, just 6ML and DHS. KISS.

[Koniving]

GamerGirlGundam, on 20 October 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

what would be the best armor distribution for the jenner ?

specifically like a jr7-f with small pulse or ml
can someone share the most ideal/optimal ct st head ratio if there is such a thing

Here you go Gamer Girl.

This armor allocation takes advantage of the unfortunately primitive and severely limited hitbox design of the Jenner in which you are a running center torso with side torsos that encompass exclusively your shoulders and a rear hitbox that consists of a flat metal plate.

So long as you make sure your retreats give enemies your side or side front and do not retreat in a straight line, you will never take any damage to the rear.

And if you do, well you were probably running in a straight line directly away from the enemy or running from LRMs without looking in their direction (both of which are cardinal sins and you should be ashamed).

That said..
with the exception of an all new V-shape split on the Pelvis, this is the Jenner's hitbox. And honestly I don't even think that got updated.

The good news is that due to this logical fallacy you can never go wrong with an XL engine, and the Jenner won't be prone to one shot kills after doing your armor like this. In fact you'll find people will cry about your lag shield when you have none!

[Koniving]

I personally find it a shame they couldn't use the original Mechwarrior's hitboxes for the Jenner.


The "head" is the CT, the cockpit is the "head", the big blocky section on the back is the LT and RT, essentially dividing the mech into 3 sections.
In this case the CT would still be larger.
In MWO the three sections (due to the shoulders being where the legs should be) would actually be about the same size, with the CT only being larger due to the inclusion of the pelvis.
The Jenner depicted has minor damage to the LT armor and the left arm.

Instead, we have the Japanese hitbox design.

Where the "leg" connecting points (which are shoulders in MWO) are the LT and RT, the 'body' is the CT, and the entire saucer section is the "head".
The Jenner depicted has a destroyed right torso and arm.

Edited by Koniving, 20 October 2014 - 06:09 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

Again, adding ferro can eke out a tiny bit of extra weight, if you really want another half-ton to work with(or lower the arms to make a full ton free but I don't know how much damage the Jenner will take to it's arm nubs in actual play)

[TercieI]

Redshift2k5, on 20 October 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

Again, adding ferro can eke out a tiny bit of extra weight, if you really want another half-ton to work with(or lower the arms to make a full ton free but I don't know how much damage the Jenner will take to it's arm nubs in actual play)

My arms run at 20/24. I wouldn't cheat lower (nor is there much need). They do get hit, but not all the time. More often than the STs.

[Satan n stuff]

DavidHurricane, on 20 October 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

Sterotypical JR7-F using 1 ton weapons

You can replace the MLs with Small Pulse Lasers if you like. It has max armor and engine. And AMS and all 5 Jump Jets.

I'd go a bit heavier on the front armor, that nose is the biggest target on the mech after all. Anything over 5 on the back still gives decent protection against solid rear torso hits, but there aren't a lot of people who would be trying for those.
You can frontload even more than that if you're good about torso twisting, but you risk getting instakilled by that one lucky hit.

[ImperialKnight]

JR7-F skirmisher build. no AMS, because if you're being targetted, you're doing it wrong.

there are really really good Jenner pilots that go 1 pt rear. but i prefer to at least have a little protection against stray shots

[The Great Unwashed]

The hitboxes of a Jenner are inconsequential as hitting it at all is difficult enough . But I'd also go with nearly no rear armor and avoiding exposing rear armor to any enemy. Standing still is usually most unwise as well and try to avoid being the single mech attracting enemy fire.

Getting killed in one shot is still a possibility (and a joy to behold for twin-Gauss users) but no amount of rear-side torso armor is going to help you there. You can build to survive a single ISAC20 hit with 5 rear side torso armor... but why would you? Accept instant death as a challenge to run the Jenner.

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 20 October 2014 - 06:53 AM.

[TercieI]

knightsljx, on 20 October 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

JR7-F skirmisher build. no AMS, because if you're being targetted, you're doing it wrong.

there are really really good Jenner pilots that go 1 pt rear. but i prefer to at least have a little protection against stray shots

Yep, this is the build...or cheat armor and lose a JJ for one more DHS.

[Rogue Jedi]

unfortunately there is no such thing as a perfect armor distribution, that depends on several factors, however as others have said you will usualy die to a front CT hit, due to the fact that the front CT is such a large target

this is my experiance in a Jenner (my founders JR7-D, but should work just as well for the F)

in a Jenner I only ever seem to die from front CT or legs, after putting 5 points on the each rear torsos I max armor on front CT, both arms and both legs, I find the arms usualy go before the side torsos so if I need extra weight (after the endo and ferro upgrades) I will remove armor from the side torsos (but leave at least 20) and the head can go down to 6, high enough so you survive a lucky AC20 hit.

This armor distribution works fine for me, an experianced (but far from elite) Light pilot, obviously if you find your self dying from e.g. the rear left torso a lot then increase armor there (or get better at not showing that part to the enemy), if conversely you never loose a specific componant it may be safe to reduce armor on that section, but I always try to ensure any part of the mech can survive a single AC20 hit after once too oftern dyeing with no enemy in sight

[Mobile Ordnance Platform]

ok thanks all and wow never knew that about the original jenner kon (imagine we had that model !)

i knew there was something fishy about the hitbox, im gonna try that 2 points of armor at the rears it makes sense (assuming u dont show ur back as u retreat) it feels scary thou

[Koniving]

Well the good news is I've seen Jenners run and while running they will keep an enemy in sight while retreating.

They each have a 120 degree twist range which, after elites is 144°.

That's 36 degrees short of shooting directly behind itself. With the stock 240 engine it can twist a full 140 degrees in a single second (also when elited), limited exclusively by your mouse! (So joystick users can twist almost the full range of motion in a single second, from one side to the other.)

With a long, broad body like this...

(Old shot, but funny I only just noticed this; the Founder's Jenner is shorter)


with everything beyond the arm being center torso, and a flat rectangle being the rear CT, you'll be able to protect your rear torso from any attacker, anywhere.

It's obviously preferable not to get surrounded, as you might be able to keep the common herd of enemies to your torso's front... you'll never keep an enemy that has you surrounded from getting behind you.

[Koniving]

Now as for the classic Jenner, it had a number of perks and flaws of its own. Some good, some bad, all of which give it character that I would have really liked.

Spoiler

It wasn't able to twist. Though apparently it is frequently depicted as being able to turn the cockpit so while it didn't have any real peripheral vision the cockpit itself could rotate apparently 45 degrees in either direction to give the pilot a better view of the situation. It is also depicted with the ability to pivot the legs in 3 directions (front/back, slightly side-to-side, and rotate). This is because mechs were originally conceived with metallic muscles, much like the miniature metal gear Rex knockoffs in Metal Gear 4.


Akin to similar mechs, it would lose both the arm and the leg in theory if the side torso was actually destroyed or crippled.

(I had this experience in battletech / megamek and I have to tell you nothing will make you feel more desperate than trying to use jumpjets to get away from a Battlemaster than having one leg and one arm with the building heat of 1 unit per second or 10 heat per turn [1/3rd of the maximum threshold] in a game where you can fall over if you don't land correctly or lose consciousness from heat exhaustion).


Jenner alongside a Javelin.

On the plus side, a Jenner's SRMs like all BT SRMs were as homing as streaks, though neither were as capable of defying physics, but they didn't need to be. Mechs weren't that fast. So if the target was some 45+ degrees off to your left you could still lock your SRMs on it and fire as long as you could see it. Sure, the lasers could only fire forward... and straight up, straight down, and directly behind you! 360 degrees of firing angles both in front and behind you; bet one of those monitors would be super useful then!


A Jenner turning its head.

So in a way, "THAT" original Jenner would be harder to use and less capable horizontally, but it'd be very capable vertically. Which is good because as you could see, when it jumped it was 150 meters (going forward, though that's a maximum vertical height of 30 meters with no thrust left to land with).


A Jenner.

Another thing you will notice is that the Jenner may have a small vertical profile and a small horizontal one as far as the body, but those legs are LONG! The Jenner is exceptionally tall in its original form (slightly taller than a Battletech Hunchback -- but I should note a BT Hunchback is 4.5 meters shorter than MWO's Hunchback. Then again a BT Atlas is also 4 meters shorter than MWO's down to 13 meters tall [MWO has it at 17+ meters]).

The Clan Jenner IIC.


Unlike the standard Jenner, the II-C is noteworthy in that the entire leg and arm apparatus (side torso) can pivot 45 degrees forward and back, giving the Jenner II-C a number of abilities including convergence (while stationary ONLY!!!), things that the standard IS Jenner model do not have.

On a side note for Battletech... I've begun working with Megamek to create specific campaign scenarios. Just yesterday I created one to simulate training pilots in Copper CPK-19 SecurityMechs to be able to traverse a populated downtown area during a busy time (with pedestrians and civilian vehicles), where the goal is to run a course and reach the destination without causing massive damage; where the civilian vehicles will react by trying to drive away and escape whenever a mech gets too close. The obvious result being reckless driving and accidents.

Since I have it set in Kurita territory anyway, I'll make sure they run their next test in Jenners for fun.

Here are two highlighted failures!

Several cars in traffic react to a mech running across the street!

Spoiler

Copper CPK-19 SecurityMech #2 (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check while moving in hex 1435 (running & turning on pavement).
Needs 1 [1 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (high/low gravity) - 1 (running & turning on pavement)], rolls 8 : succeeds.

Ground Car (Standard) (Civilian3) must make a piloting skill check while moving in hex 1432 (reckless driving on pavement).
Needs 6 [6 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (high/low gravity) - 1 (reckless driving on pavement)], rolls 7 : succeeds.

Ground Car (Standard) (Civilian3) must make a piloting skill check while moving from hex 1434 to hex 1535 (moved 3-4 hexes).
Needs 13 [6 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (high/low gravity) + 5 (moving through Hardened Building #28808) + 1 (moved 3-4 hexes)], rolls 8 : fails.
Ground Car (Standard) (Civilian3) takes 11 damage to FR (critical).
Armor destroyed, SECTION DESTROYED,
*** Ground Car (Standard) (Civilian3) DESTROYED by damage! ***
Critical hit on FR. Roll is 5; no effect.
Critical hit on FR. Roll is 10; Passenger injured!
Crew stunned for 1 turns.

Highlighted failure: Slipping on wet asphalt! Causes side torso destruction, loses arm, skids through the wall of a building and falls into the basement!

Spoiler

Pilot of Copper CPK-19 SecurityMech (Koniving) "Go-cho Ota Isao" must roll 6 to avoid damage; rolls 9 : succeeds.
Skids into Building #32880 in hex 1730.
Copper CPK-19 SecurityMech (Koniving) takes 10 damage to RT.
Needs 7+ to destroy Searchlight, rolls 10.
Searchlight destroyed!
SECTION DESTROYED,
LIMB BLOWN OFF Right Arm blown off.
4 damage transfers to CT.
Critical hit on RT. Roll is (2+2) = 4; no effect.
Copper CPK-19 SecurityMech (Koniving) takes 4 damage to CT.
2 Armor remaining.

Building #32880 in Hex 1730 is entered and has unknown basement, rolls 4: Single (normal fall) basement.
Copper CPK-19 SecurityMech (Koniving) suffers 0 damage from the skid.

Skid ends.

End Phase
-------------------
Copper CPK-19 SecurityMech (a Zhizhu story) needs to avoid critical damage due to falling 1 levels.
Critical hit on CT. Roll is (2+3) = 5; no effect.
Copper CPK-19 SecurityMech #3 (a Zhizhu story) needs to avoid critical damage due to falling 1 levels.
Critical hit on RT. Roll is (3+3) = 6; no effect.

Final highlight; ICE-powered (Internal Combustion Engine) mech springs gas leak!

Spoiler

End Phase
-------------------
Copper CPK-19 SecurityMech #3 (a Zhizhu story) needs to avoid critical damage due to falling 1 levels.
Critical hit on CT. Roll is (11+3) = 14; 3 locations.
CRITICAL HIT on Standard Gyro.
CRITICAL HIT on Engine.
Copper CPK-19 SecurityMech #3 (a Zhizhu story) has taken 1 engine hits this phase.
Checking for engine explosion on 10, roll is 7.
Engine safety systems remain in place.
CRITICAL HIT on Standard Gyro.
CRITICAL HIT on Engine.
Copper CPK-19 SecurityMech #3 (a Zhizhu story) has taken 2 engine hits this phase.
Checking for fuel leak on 5, roll is 8.
***The fuel tank for engine (ICE) is leaking fuel.
Checking for engine explosion on 7, roll is 9.
***The safety systems on the engine fail catastrophically resulting in a cascading engine failure!
*** Copper CPK-19 SecurityMech #3 (a Zhizhu story) DESTROYED by engine explosion! ***

What great fun!
----

Do let me know how the armor allocation worked for you!

I'm sure you know but it is built with the idea that you'll do the chasing rather than being chased and it works well with hit-and-run as well as sniper Jen-Jens. (I know the head armor is low, but as long as you don't hold still no one will channel enough of a headshot to kill you; heck even with all the holding still I do in my ER PPC Jenner while walking alongside an Atlas with an XL 180 engine I've yet to be killed by headshot).

Hoping to hear favorable results!

[JonahGrimm]

To support Kon - my 7K, my baby, with nearly a thousand drops, has never - not once - been killed by a headshot. It's just... not easy to do to a Jenner.

Legs and CT, yes, but only rarely to side torsos (usually only after I've lost and arm, and the side torso's then easy to hit).

[Ertur]

Start with max FF armor. Take off 6 points. Only take points from front side torsos, arms, and the head. For the JR7-F I take 4 points from the head, and one point from each side torso front. Always have max armor CT and legs, that's where most of your damage will be taken.

I have been head shot once in several hundreds of drops, and that was only because I was a dummy and stood still on a hill to type a report where the enemy was. Remember: If you can see them, they can see you.

[SnagaDance]

JonahGrimm, on 20 October 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

To support Kon - my 7K, my baby, with nearly a thousand drops, has never - not once - been killed by a headshot. It's just... not easy to do to a Jenner.

Legs and CT, yes, but only rarely to side torsos (usually only after I've lost and arm, and the side torso's then easy to hit).

I've actually done it once, ONCE! While also in a Jenner-F. We both were in that industrial area on Caustic where only little mechs can go. Both damaged, both at high heat and both desperate to get that killing blow. Which let to us overheating in sequence. Start up again. Alpha. Shut down again. This happened about 3 times for both of us, we were clearly panicking and not aiming well (I was pretty new to the game as well back then). When all of a sudden he shut down right in front of me, point blank, and I though "What the hell am I doing?!". Aim for cockpit glass. 6 ML alpha. Victory! Still one of my fondest Jenner memories.

[Tarogato]

Ertur, on 20 October 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

I have been head shot once in several hundreds of drops, and that was only because I was a dummy and stood still on a hill to type a report where the enemy was. Remember: If you can see them, they can see you.

Exact same thing happened to me once. I was strafing an enemy when I overheated and used the momentum to slide myself behind a building. Unfortunately I had slid too far and was sticking out the other side and I had also already started typing a report to my mates when a Dire Wolf rounds the corner just after I rebooted and hadn't sent my message yet, so I was just sitting there. Headshot.

Koniving, on 20 October 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

Here you go Gamer Girl.
This armor allocation takes advantage of the unfortunately primitive and severely limited hitbox design of the Jenner in which you are a running center torso with side torsos that encompass exclusively your shoulders and a rear hitbox that consists of a flat metal plate.

So long as you make sure your retreats give enemies your side or side front and do not retreat in a straight line, you will never take any damage to the rear. And if you do, well you were probably running in a straight line directly away from the enemy or running from LRMs without looking in their direction (both of which are cardinal sins and you should be ashamed).

Kon, as much as I get killed in the rear torso (I started keeping track every time I died), I never thought to put the armour in the front and use it as a shield. That's brilliant, I'm rather excited to try it out now. Fun fact... you don't need full leg armour in a Jenner either - my deaths from legging were very few. I lost more arms than legs, actually.